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biztransact PR
23-11-2013, 01:58 PM
I received my ILMCOA membership pack in the mail this week – thanks Dean it’s terrific… the book is setup in an easy to read and very structured way, covering all the right aspects to help you succeed. Note to any guest reading through the forum and who have been meaning to become a member – do it now! …click on the link and join, it’s great value for money with ongoing support.

Reading through the book it got me thinking about effective marketing – advertising, branding, promotions, referrals, etc… As the book details - keep it simple, within budget and stand out from the others. I’d be interested to hear what everyone is currently doing, or have considered doing to market their business. e.g. proven methods like flyers and local papers, or perhaps expanding into social media. We develop Biz.Transact with branding in mind and as we go through cycles of software development hearing about marketing methods helps us improve Biz.Transact for everyone.

Lawn Mowing Professionals
01-02-2015, 09:58 PM
Marketing isn't a "HOT" topic on this site... :wave-hi:

"the banned marketing guru" :the bird :laughing:

Simmo. :aus-flag:

:wtf:wtf:wtf:wtf:wtf:wtf:wtf:wtf:wtf:wtf

brodie
01-02-2015, 10:21 PM
It's a real shame that this is the views that are being held by members on the site. We seem to focus on less important aspects of our business like what mower to buy or telling everyone how we don't like a customer.

We should be talking marketing and using this resource as a combined community to see what is working and what is not. In the past 5 years the way we market has changed so dramatically form how we used to do it.
I believe we should be discussing this. The members forum would be a better place for this though.

As for the original question well it's a mix of things that work for us and it's ever changing depending on the area and demographic that we are targeting.

Younger family's are embracing technology where as older or retired persons are sticking to paperbased marketing as its what's know to them and works.

We can track what areas are adopting different types of marketing and any offers we have in that marketing and also how long it takes for the marketing to go from dispersal to uptake of service.

Tim I've been meaning to update the CRM thread as we have been testing out different systems, and a big thanks to yourself for pointing me in the right direction with that

Brodie
Advanced Grounds Management

Stump
02-02-2015, 05:34 AM
I received my ILMCOA membership pack in the mail this week – thanks Dean it’s terrific… the book is setup in an easy to read and very structured way, covering all the right aspects to help you succeed. Note to any guest reading through the forum and who have been meaning to become a member – do it now! …click on the link and join, it’s great value for money with ongoing support.

Reading through the book it got me thinking about effective marketing – advertising, branding, promotions, referrals, etc… As the book details - keep it simple, within budget and stand out from the others. I’d be interested to hear what everyone is currently doing, or have considered doing to market their business. e.g. proven methods like flyers and local papers, or perhaps expanding into social media. We develop Biz.Transact with branding in mind and as we go through cycles of software development hearing about marketing methods helps us improve Biz.Transact for everyone.

Marketing my favourite subject too. Branding is a waste of time to most in this game. Its not a game where you are competing against corporate identities on a large scale. A combo of Direct Response marketing style flyers and a good local net presence is all that is needed for residential work

brodie
02-02-2015, 07:11 AM
Marketing my favourite subject too. Branding is a waste of time to most in this game. Its not a game where you are competing against corporate identities on a large scale. A combo of Direct Response marketing style flyers and a good local net presence is all that is needed for residential work

There is no reason you can't compete with bigger companies in this industry that's how they got big themselves they competeted against someone bigger than themselves at the time.

Branding and marketing are integral to business, business development and success in the industry. I see it all the time where people sledge the Jims brand. But if you look at the business it really is no different to a solo operation in the way it's run, of courses they have different systems in place because they are a large business but at the end of the day the model is the same. What is different is that they are great at marketing and great with promoting brand awareness.

I give you this example; I was traveling on a busy street in Western Sydney the other week bothe directions were moving at a medium pace but as I was looking around the traffic what stood out Jims trailers. Now I never saw the sign writing until the very last minute but from a couple of hundred meters away I could identify a Jims trailers from its colour.
That is a well branded product or business and that is why the franchise is so successful because when people think mowing they think Jims becasues there is a brand awareness.

At the end of the day it doesnt matter how many hours you worked this week or what equipment you have, if you don't have a marketing plan backing you then it's all pointless.

djkgrounds
02-02-2015, 11:47 AM
At the end of the day it doesnt matter how many hours you worked this week or what equipment you have, if you don't have a marketing plan backing you then it's all pointless.

Exactly, I have been slowly changing the way I market my business as I only work it a couple of days a week at the moment due to family commitments. But hoping in the next couple of months I will be going full time 5-6 days a week.

When starting out it was more word of mouth and friends yards, then I moved on to advertising through gumtree and getting the young families that want everything for free (phasing this out very fast). I am now advertising in the yellowpages online and getting many calls a day from people that actually want the work.

mowbro
02-02-2015, 04:16 PM
I really enjoy the discussion that comes from talking about marketing, advertising and branding; I've got a degree in it afterall. However, you can understand why it's not a 'hot' topic on a forum like this given that there are many of us on here who are directcompetitors. Now I'm very friendly with some of my direct competitors, and there is plenty of work out there for all of us.

I agree there is a spot for some of this though. Perhaps we can be helping each other to develop marketing plans etc and encourage people to realise that forming a strategy and making decisions based on what works for you in your particular situation. Now in saying that, I know there are people who are not my direct competitors, so I'm more than happy to share some of the strategy that I've put in place and what has / hasnt worked for me. But you'd have to be in a different state, and I probably wouldn't share it on the open forum :p

Stump
02-02-2015, 06:31 PM
There is no reason you can't compete with bigger companies in this industry that's how they got big themselves they competeted against someone bigger than themselves at the time.

Branding and marketing are integral to business, business development and success in the industry. I see it all the time where people sledge the Jims brand. But if you look at the business it really is no different to a solo operation in the way it's run, of courses they have different systems in place because they are a large business but at the end of the day the model is the same. What is different is that they are great at marketing and great with promoting brand awareness.

I give you this example; I was traveling on a busy street in Western Sydney the other week bothe directions were moving at a medium pace but as I was looking around the traffic what stood out Jims trailers. Now I never saw the sign writing until the very last minute but from a couple of hundred meters away I could identify a Jims trailers from its colour.
That is a well branded product or business and that is why the franchise is so successful because when people think mowing they think Jims becasues there is a brand awareness.

At the end of the day it doesnt matter how many hours you worked this week or what equipment you have, if you don't have a marketing plan backing you then it's all pointless.

If you were starting out a franchising business and had hundreds of thousands of dollars to compete with the likes of Jim then branding would be important. We are talking Indie business here, and branding is a complete waste of time and money where residential lawns are concerned. There really are no secrets where marketing is concerned, as every idea can be found somewhere on youtube. As far as being worried about the competition,..thats something to forget about too. The most succesful marketer in the world could post his secret on this forum, and 80% of guys would intend to do it, 19% would do it for a few weeks, and if you are lucky 1% would do it longer.
Hell,...95% of guys do not even have a regular marketing budget, and the ones that do probably only use one medium.

NLALM
02-02-2015, 06:49 PM
I really enjoy the discussion that comes from talking about marketing, advertising and branding; I've got a degree in it afterall. However, you can understand why it's not a 'hot' topic on a forum like this given that there are many of us on here who are directcompetitors. Now I'm very friendly with some of my direct competitors, and there is plenty of work out there for all of us.

I agree there is a spot for some of this though. Perhaps we can be helping each other to develop marketing plans etc and encourage people to realise that forming a strategy and making decisions based on what works for you in your particular situation. Now in saying that, I know there are people who are not my direct competitors, so I'm more than happy to share some of the strategy that I've put in place and what has / hasnt worked for me. But you'd have to be in a different state, and I probably wouldn't share it on the open forum :p

I agree, but I still don't share even if they are in another state

steveo
02-02-2015, 07:07 PM
Quote Originally Posted by brodie View Post

At the end of the day it doesnt matter how many hours you worked this week or what equipment you have, if you don't have a marketing plan backing you then it's all pointless.


Can you elaborate on this statement a bit mate. I think I fall in to the category of it being all pointless. It's an interesting topic and i'm interested to hear your thoughts and anyone elses for that matter.

brodie
02-02-2015, 07:58 PM
Quote Originally Posted by brodie View Post

At the end of the day it doesnt matter how many hours you worked this week or what equipment you have, if you don't have a marketing plan backing you then it's all pointless.


Can you elaborate on this statement a bit mate. I think I fall in to the category of it being all pointless. It's an interesting topic and i'm interested to hear your thoughts and anyone elses for that matter.


I was short on time and should have elaborated more at rehearsal time but what I meant was that you can have all the equipment in the world best of the best but if you don't have a customer base you won't be using all that equipment.

I see a lot of business owners who focus on the customers they have right now and if another one comes along then that's just a bonus, but there doesn't seem to be thought into a continuing on their customer base.

I take an example from an American lawn company that I know quite well;
He had a medium sized business with a few crews, all weekly mowing and all his customers in one township. Now this sounds great short compact run down on expenses. BUT in one day he lost his entire customer base how? A cyclone went through the town and destroyed his customers house.

The point of the story is he did no marketing to expand his customer base and rested on his word of mouth referrals. This is fine in a perfect world but in reality we all loose for some reason but having plans in place allow us to better ride out the bad times.
If you are constantly selling yourself and bringing in referals then there is alway something to fall back on.


In no way do I mean to offend, isolate or diminish what people are doing. I am passionate about marketing and branding and this industry and I really just want to see us all succeed. I realise that my passion can come through as obnoxious at times and I appologise for that

Lawn Mowing Professionals
02-02-2015, 09:34 PM
It's good to see there are some passionate comrades out there that understands the importance of marketing.

Without marketing you wouldn't have a business full stop!

Direct response is the best way to advertise.... If done right you will create a "brand" whilst doing direct response advertising.

In saying that when I use to advertise for mowing I don't advertise a business name... No one honestly cared.

If you want a large business with multiple crews or strata and commercial work then branding "can" play an important role.... not as much as who you know though!

Anyway... Good luck to you all and invest time in your own personal development and business development. Put the head phones on and download YouTube clips the night before... Listen to an hour or 2 a day and you will be in the top 1% within no time :)

Ps. When is my ban honestly going to be lifted? I feel like a ILMCOA ghost that can be heard but not seen :(

:)

Simmo

Macka
02-02-2015, 09:41 PM
to busy to do any marketing, thinking of taking my phone the yellow pages and gumtree.

steveo
03-02-2015, 07:07 AM
hi brodie no offence taken, was just interested in what you had to say, like I say it's an interesting topic, even word of mouth is a form of marketing

brodie
03-02-2015, 07:23 AM
hi brodie no offence taken, was just interested in what you had to say, like I say it's an interesting topic, even word of mouth is a form of marketing

Agreed and still to this day one of our most powerful marketing tools. A referal from a good customer generally produces another good customer.

I see you are from Canberra? In my starting years of business we were called in to do some tree work and word of mouth spread like wild fire. A one day job turned into 3 weeks moving from referal to referal.

biztransact PR
10-02-2015, 08:54 PM
It’s great to read everyone’s input on this topic – the comments about referrals particular got my interest. I speak to lots of small business operators each day in various services and trades and regularly hear about their marketing successes and failures, that aside the conversation usually moves on to referrals – from what I’m hearing the strike rate of securing a new customer via a referral is about 70% compared to a new customer via quoting from an advertising lead at about 30%.

What’s everyone’s thoughts on this? – from your experience do those figures sound right? …and what level of importance do you place on referrals.


...Agreed and still to this day one of our most powerful marketing tools. A referal from a good customer generally produces another good customer...

brodie
10-02-2015, 10:26 PM
It’s great to read everyone’s input on this topic – the comments about referrals particular got my interest. I speak to lots of small business operators each day in various services and trades and regularly hear about their marketing successes and failures, that aside the conversation usually moves on to referrals – from what I’m hearing the strike rate of securing a new customer via a referral is about 70% compared to a new customer via quoting from an advertising lead at about 30%.

What’s everyone’s thoughts on this? – from your experience do those figures sound right? …and what level of importance do you place on referrals.

A referal from an existing customer carry's a lot of positive momentum. The existing client does the majority of the sale leaving the business owner to close the sale.

The new client isn't nececerally looking for other contractors to do the job they just want to confirm prices and meet with the contractor to form their own relationship. Go in with the right attitude and there is a good chance you will walk away with a new client.

Let me put it to you like this; your buying a new mower and you ask me what I think.

I say we bought this mower and we are really happy with it, these features are great and I think you will really like it for A, B and C reasons. This is the dealer we used and this is the salesman, tell him I sent you and he will look after you. There are not the cheapest but they offer the best after sales service.


Now I have set a mental picture about this great peice of equipment given all the reason I like it and a few reasons that you might like it. Now it's not the cheapest on the market but because I have given my recommendation you are more likely to have a look and it's now up to the salesman to now close the deal.

Close rates are always higher when the customer has and sees a perceived value for the service you provide. Flyers are great for getting your name out to the public but have no real value to the potential client. They show that you mow lawns but doesn't say how well or to what quality. Yes you will have pictures but everyone has similar pictures and after you see a couple a season they all look similar.

I know it's been said in previous posts that branding holds no real significance in small business but I tend to disagree. There are several thousand private owned lawn mowing business in Australia and standing out can be difficult. Let's say you are in a small town and there are 5 other contractors, you all run the same sort of marketing flyers and a basic website. What makes the potential client pick up the phone and call you? BRANDING

The other 5 do the same marketing for 2015 but this year you change it up a bit and get your business seen more. You sponsor the local football club, run promotional specials flyers, billboard advertise anything to just get your name seen in as many public places as possible

If the client is more aware of you then when they see the next bunch of flyers yours will suddenly stand out just that little bit more. You want to be the first call they make and the last call they make.

Having brand awareness takes your 30% close rate to a 50% close rate. You now have 20% more business than the competition and 20% more lead generators.

I should say that all branding should be directive to a place of your choosing. In this day and age a website or Facebook page should be these this place. It's a place where you can tell the potential customer everything they need to know about you and your business. Having a good website will increase the amount of calls that come through to you rather than looking somewhere else. Branding costs money and doesn't directly bring in revenue but should be seen as a collective tool that builds on itself over time.

I've babbled on for a bit but I hope there are some interesting things to take from it. I'd suggest YouTube videos are a great way to learn marketing amd branding. Most videos are from other contractors who are just telling you what works and they do it all for free.

Stump
11-02-2015, 06:13 AM
I mainly follow a website called ilovemarketing.com as they interview many different business people and talk about their best and newest marketing strategies, and there is a huge archive of mp3s to download and you can listen to them while you mow.
In 2013 I tried an advertised referral program, and got a huge response from the wrong type of client, so since then I have made it more of a suprised base reward for referal program, and although I am now having to wait for a referral to give it, I am getting better clients out of selected better recipients of the rewards. Good clients usually provide good referrals. The opposite is true of the not so good ones. If you advertise it and they expect it, your offer will lose all of its magic. Suprise them and it will make their day and be remembered.

mowbro
27-05-2015, 05:59 PM
Anyone based somewhere other than Melbourne care to share with me some of your examples or hints for making a flyer that you've had good success with?

I've had only a small amount of success with mine, but in saying that have only delivered around 1000. I know that the pick up rate is low when it comes to this form of advertising, but would be interested to see what has proved to give you a better return as far as flyers are concerned. More info? Less info? Colours? No colours? before and after photos? persuasive language etc? Feel free to PM me if thats more your style.

brodie
27-05-2015, 06:46 PM
Anyone based somewhere other than Melbourne care to share with me some of your examples or hints for making a flyer that you've had good success with?

I've had only a small amount of success with mine, but in saying that have only delivered around 1000. I know that the pick up rate is low when it comes to this form of advertising, but would be interested to see what has proved to give you a better return as far as flyers are concerned. More info? Less info? Colours? No colours? before and after photos? persuasive language etc? Feel free to PM me if thats more your style.

I'm not in your area but still happy to help.
As you identified your uptake rate is for this type of marketing is lower because you are attempting to sell to someone who isn't actively looking for the services that you offer.

Your leaflet need to have the following elements;
- strong headline (could be the service your marketing or a special promotion)
- clear and simple body text and 2 good clear pictures that show exactly what you are talking about
- strong call to action
- the contact details you want the reader to use to find out more information. I see you have a website so direct them there and a phone number.

How the above content is placed on the page is important to.

Your website needs to reflect your paper based marketing. If you are offering a service like rose pruning next month you need to have that information on the website too.
I'd be happy to share my thoughts on some possible website improvement if you want to get in contact.

VJinTownsville
02-06-2015, 09:25 PM
Hey mowbro my last drop was using only my business cards with magnets stuck on the back of them, from 500 cards I got maybe 15 jobs from it.

I plan to scale it up and make it more consistent, applying small things like 5 houses left and right and 10 across. I've just ordered 5000 cards and magnets. will be doing calendars and other promo stuff for when I do doorknocking, and not coming home unless I have 2 customers in the bag each day. I am also forming a crew so i can take on a higher role and away from field work.

qldlawn1
03-06-2015, 03:44 PM
Why don't you try a website and google adwords?

If you want a basic website, you could set it up for around $50 per year using Wordpress.
The $50 is for your name eg ??????.com and space on a computer to store your website (the website would look basic).

Then you have SEO, eg someone types "lawn mowing toorak" in google, then the websites that match appear. (Getting your website to appear first is very difficult, as you are competing with businesses with a lot money to spend on this.

The easier option is google adwords. Roughly, These are the top 3 ads that appear at the top of google and on the right hand side.
You can set a budget of say $10 per day, and how much your willing to pay for someone to click on your website.
Once the the $10 is reached, that's all you spend for the day.
You set the certain keywords eg "lawn mowing toorak" then you bid against each on how much your are willing to pay for someone to click your ad. (The higher you are willing to bid per click the higher in the page your ad will appear

steveo
03-06-2015, 06:04 PM
That's interesting information, good to understand that most of our internet search results are influenced by whoever pays more not necessarily by how relevant it is.

brodie
03-06-2015, 07:47 PM
That's interesting information, good to understand that most of our internet search results are influenced by whoever pays more not necessarily by how relevant it is.

I think there was a slight misunderstanding, the first three to four ads with a yellow ad icon are the paid to the top ads. The following results are ranked by the most relevant information based on your search. Googles algorithm searches websites for logical relevant text. SEO is about making sure you have the correct key words and good quality relevant content on your website. To rank well in Google you need to be adding relevant content to your website otherwise Google assumes that you are no longer relevant to searches. For example if you put up a web page and ranked organically for your key words but never spent any time on SEO after the initial set up your webpage would start ranking lower unless you searched for the business name.

You now need to constantly add, twek and maintain your website. It also needs to be mobile friendly or you will rank lower.

troppo
03-06-2015, 09:50 PM
I just do a good job at a fair price and have never advertised as such. Basic old word of mouth (referrals) plus I do a lot of gardening the other lawnies around here wouldn't even dream of tackling, let alone know how to do it. Did a job last week, 2.5 days on the mattock and shovel - no gym fees here!!!! l have cards in a my regular servo, at the gardening supplies shop and at the taxi base office.

South East Mowing
03-06-2015, 10:41 PM
Why don't you try a website and google adwords?

If you want a basic website, you could set it up for around $50 per year using Wordpress.
The $50 is for your name eg ??????.com and space on a computer to store your website (the website would look basic).

Then you have SEO, eg someone types "lawn mowing toorak" in google, then the websites that match appear. (Getting your website to appear first is very difficult, as you are competing with businesses with a lot money to spend on this.

The easier option is google adwords. Roughly, These are the top 3 ads that appear at the top of google and on the right hand side.
You can set a budget of say $10 per day, and how much your willing to pay for someone to click on your website.
Once the the $10 is reached, that's all you spend for the day.
You set the certain keywords eg "lawn mowing toorak" then you bid against each on how much your are willing to pay for someone to click your ad. (The higher you are willing to bid per click the higher in the page your ad will appear

This is really the type of thing you want to achieve:)8324

Macka
03-06-2015, 11:16 PM
This is really the type of thing you want to achieve:)8324

service seek $30 a hour in your area ?

Mick
04-06-2015, 08:35 AM
You dont come up as often when I searched lawn mowing dandenong but you did come up 3 times, plus the Google Business so 4 times on the first page.
But what is this.... http://southeastlawnmowing.com.au/lawn-mowing-dandenong/ Its at the top on first page when I search.

South East Mowing
04-06-2015, 01:52 PM
Was just to show what can be done in smaller markets/searches . That was back in 2013 I think and lasted for 1 night only.

geoff
13-07-2015, 10:39 AM
I notice some business use face-book to boost their presence,on my page, i have had a gardening service appear on my page for about two weeks and they were located 15 to 20 km away..I notice you can boost your page if you pay for it..Anyone used this form and was it cost effective..??

courty
13-07-2015, 11:01 AM
I tried it a while back Geoff, tyre kickers and tight arses was all it attracted :-)

PhilG
13-07-2015, 01:34 PM
I notice some business use face-book to boost their presence,on my page, i have had a gardening service appear on my page for about two weeks and they were located 15 to 20 km away..I notice you can boost your page if you pay for it..Anyone used this form and was it cost effective..??

I tried Facebook. Was a waste of time.

imoww
13-07-2015, 01:43 PM
Hey mowbro, I had a flyer with great results when I started out.
I'll pm it to you when I find it.
It's got a before and after pic with a section to hand write a quick quote on their front lawns etc and when I'm in their area next

I'm not in your area but still happy to help.
As you identified your uptake rate is for this type of marketing is lower because you are attempting to sell to someone who isn't actively looking for the services that you offer.

Your leaflet need to have the following elements;
- strong headline (could be the service your marketing or a special promotion)
- clear and simple body text and 2 good clear pictures that show exactly what you are talking about
- strong call to action
- the contact details you want the reader to use to find out more information. I see you have a website so direct them there and a phone number.

How the above content is placed on the page is important to.

Your website needs to reflect your paper based marketing. If you are offering a service like rose pruning next month you need to have that information on the website too.
I'd be happy to share my thoughts on some possible website improvement if you want to get in contact.

imoww
13-07-2015, 06:44 PM
here it is. i had great results as it was short and to the point with pics, free quote and when im there next if they want me to mow.8395
Anyone based somewhere other than Melbourne care to share with me some of your examples or hints for making a flyer that you've had good success with?

I've had only a small amount of success with mine, but in saying that have only delivered around 1000. I know that the pick up rate is low when it comes to this form of advertising, but would be interested to see what has proved to give you a better return as far as flyers are concerned. More info? Less info? Colours? No colours? before and after photos? persuasive language etc? Feel free to PM me if thats more your style.

Dave23
13-07-2015, 07:43 PM
I notice some business use face-book to boost their presence,on my page, i have had a gardening service appear on my page for about two weeks and they were located 15 to 20 km away..I notice you can boost your page if you pay for it..Anyone used this form and was it cost effective..??

We've used Facebook quite a bit but never got any work from it

Bluey
14-07-2015, 07:52 AM
Put yourself in the mind of the average punter your trying to snare some work off. Where are they likely to turn too to look for a lawn mowing contractor if they need one.

sterlo
14-07-2015, 03:46 PM
Huge results on Facebook...its how u do it, and why u do it that matters.

Demographics have changed and targets will change.

I realize punters don't search social media for contractors but if its in their face they do call.

Sterlo

geoff
14-07-2015, 04:09 PM
Huge results on Facebook...its how u do it, and why u do it that matters.

Demographics have changed and targets will change.

I realize punters don't search social media for contractors but if its in their face they do call.

Sterlo

reckon you are on a winner Sterlo you targeted certain areas including mine and you appeared on our facebook page everyday for a few weeks...it does cost but you can control the amount...We have local gardeners on our buy swap and sell page and they boost their business all the time ,in the potential customers face ,direct marketing lol but i know they get heaps of work too.....a lot of big companies do also use facebook and as Sterlo syas its how you do it....You have to pay nothing for nothing these days

brett73
14-07-2015, 04:12 PM
Huge results on Facebook...its how u do it, and why u do it that matters.

Demographics have changed and targets will change.

I realize punters don't search social media for contractors but if its in their face they do call.

Sterlo

This is what I've been told by a few other contractors around this area, plenty of work to be had from Facebook.

I've just started making my page and probably wont pay them for any likes or extra exposure. I will how ever ask my existing clients to like, recommend and share it, if they have facebook and are happy to help me out. Will see how it goes next month, when I have got it to a stage I'm happy with.

PhilG
14-07-2015, 04:43 PM
I was obviously doing it wrong on Facebook

Macka
14-07-2015, 05:07 PM
The private forum would be a better place to be giving out tips.

steveo
16-07-2015, 07:07 PM
Huge results on Facebook...its how u do it, and why u do it that matters.

Demographics have changed and targets will change.

I realize punters don't search social media for contractors but if its in their face they do call.

Sterlo

Anyone use Google ad words? Is it easy to use or do you pay someone? Can you get by with just a website or do you also need a facebook presence?