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jd
01-12-2013, 06:09 PM
Had a few friends ask me recently how long did i think i could do this work for? While raising an eyebrow and asking them if they knew something i didn't, it got me thinking. I'm 51, been doing this for 10 years and have just presumed that i'd be pushing a mower till i'm 70. But when i think about it i don't see too many above 55. What's the verdict out there?? Who is the Mick Jagger out there??

geoff
01-12-2013, 06:36 PM
mate i am pushing 59 and actually over 25 years plus in this game i have never have been so busy and never worked so hard..actually i am thriving on it and cannot see why i cant put many more years in...secret is work smarter not harder...this is a record year for me and reckon i can do it gain and again.....i know one man who `pulled stumps at nearly 80 and he did fine.....my oldies live on a farm in their 80s and still whipper cut fire wood and flogged the ride ons,so i be happy to follow their footsteps lol...if you are lucky and have no medical conditions its fine ,some i know have knees back and so problems and that makes it harder to push on..trouble is its really good money and you be hard pressed to earn that working for the man...

great nature
01-12-2013, 06:53 PM
Jd, i see heaps of 55ers out there mowing and gardening. Most of them are beer money bobs though. :[

Matt1972
01-12-2013, 07:17 PM
Been thinking the same thing lately. I'm nearly 42 and been doing this for over 9 years. I'm hoping to get another 15 years at least, but I have aches and pains that I didn't have before starting. My wrists and forearms give me trouble and have to do regular stretching to relieve the aches. My left knee and ankle give me trouble because of pre existing injuries (multiple ankle sprains from football and falling downs the stairs once and a cartilage tear that I have no idea how I did it) so I wear lace up boots and a knee guard when it plays up. I get tendonitis in my left shoulder, which I have to ice when it gets bad. My back plays up so I get a massage and go to the chiropractor every 4 weeks. I also have a growth on the tendon that runs across the arch of my right foot ( plantar fibromatosis ) that will require surgery at some point (apparently it's the bodies repair system over reacting). But I love the work and don't want to give up, the aches and pains still beat the hell out of putting up with the politics and pettiness of my previous jobs.

PaulG
01-12-2013, 08:09 PM
I'm 40 and I give myself about another 12 months. I need one hip, at least, replaced at this point due to bone damage and arthritis from medication for an ongoing chronic illness. Really worried about what's going to happen to me and my family after that.

Tomo
01-12-2013, 08:15 PM
Lol.......Please bring your own equipment, and blowing machine.

The job usually takes between 1.5-2 hours

imoww
01-12-2013, 09:14 PM
I made the change from an office job to this industry at 48. Now nearly 51 and loving it. ( few aches n pains but they go away)
Ive heard allot of gardeners throwing the towel in around 70 odd. Thats good ods.

South East Mowing
01-12-2013, 09:27 PM
mate i am pushing 59 and actually over 25 years plus in this game i have never have been so busy and never worked so hard..actually i am thriving on it and cannot see why i cant put many more years in...secret is work smarter not harder...this is a record year for me and reckon i can do it gain and again.....i know one man who `pulled stumps at nearly 80 and he did fine.....my oldies live on a farm in their 80s and still whipper cut fire wood and flogged the ride ons,so i be happy to follow their footsteps lol...if you are lucky and have no medical conditions its fine ,some i know have knees back and so problems and that makes it harder to push on..trouble is its really good money and you be hard pressed to earn that working for the man...

You have have good luck, good genes, good management of your body young fella! Many do not.
If my body is not going to keep up I will make sure I have put some money into good equipment which should make my job a little easier and a little different to the average fella going around.

Been at it since Feb 94 with a little break with a heart problem near 2000. No long service leave this coming Feb:russ:

Mow And Go
01-12-2013, 09:27 PM
until you fall down ...or cant stand up anymore ..whichever comes first :P

fairdinkum
02-12-2013, 04:44 AM
Until the next long dry spell. My family won't survive another 9 month stint with bugger all work

head1956
02-12-2013, 07:41 AM
A mate told me once you need 3 sources of income - good advice and good if you can achieve it. I don't do anywhere near as much as you guys, a couple to three days a week because lucky to have another source of income however rolled a previously injured ankle last week and that pulled me up in the mowing believe me. I have been looking into setting up a small nursery to operate from home and last week made that seem a bit more important. Turning 60 in a couple of years and although reasonably fit and not too many aches and pains due in part to not playing much sport when younger I know mowing lawns is not a long term business for me to depend on. Shame though because in good weather like we are now having its a good business and lifestyle.

SunM
02-12-2013, 08:12 AM
This is probably something important to think about, you can still work until retirement but if you have an accident it will be harder to recover from than when you were younger. In trees a lot of guys go from climbing/ground work to crew leaders/consulting, getting Dip of Arboriculture enables you to write reports at $150hr+ while still keeping you active and using your knowledge you've gained over the years. Is there an equivalent for you guys? Something that gets you off the tools but keeps you going in the industry?

Wyadra
02-12-2013, 10:26 AM
I started mowing 7 years ago, then did a cert 3 in landscape construction. Next year I'm doing a diploma of landscape design, get rpl cert 3 for arboriculture and then continue with diploma of arboriculture. At 49, I know I could continue to do physical work for another 15 years, but I have accumulated enough knowledge of horticulture/arboriculture that I am wasting my time doing the physical stuff. I'm not intending to give up exercise, I'd just rather get it from swimming, surfing etc. Though I hope to drop trees for the rest of my life, nothing I enjoy more. I don't think it is really that hard work. Moving soil, digging, that type of work I find is much harder. Pushing a lawn mower is no big deal, it's just the loading and unloading, but there are ways around that. I know grandma's in there 80's who cut their own lawn.

AJD Mowing
02-12-2013, 11:13 AM
Your as old as you feel... Dont let that space between your ears mess you up.

Just keep swimming :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l_tFa4-5OM

South East Mowing
02-12-2013, 03:12 PM
Your as old as you feel... Dont let that space between your ears mess you up.

Just keep swimming :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l_tFa4-5OM

I don't listen to that little voice. I just keep buying more equipment so the body doesn't toil so hard.
It is the doctor, chiropractor who keep telling me what my body is saying. ****e got some scans of my hands soon - possible arthritis the chiro says and got to see the heart specialist for a echocardiogram :p

imoww
02-12-2013, 04:09 PM
I saw an old guy last week in Ingleburn NSW riding a ride on mower and do the edges while riding.... if i could get the nack of doing that... Illl be mowing lawns until im 80...

South East Mowing
02-12-2013, 06:05 PM
I saw an old guy last week in Ingleburn NSW riding a ride on mower and do the edges while riding.... if i could get the nack of doing that... Illl be mowing lawns until im 80...

...............................+1:dance

Cranbourne Lawnmowing
02-12-2013, 07:31 PM
mate i am pushing 59 and actually over 25 years plus in this game i have never have been so busy and never worked so hard..actually i am thriving on it and cannot see why i cant put many more years in...secret is work smarter not harder...this is a record year for me and reckon i can do it gain and again.....i know one man who `pulled stumps at nearly 80 and he did fine.....my oldies live on a farm in their 80s and still whipper cut fire wood and flogged the ride ons,so i be happy to follow their footsteps lol...if you are lucky and have no medical conditions its fine ,some i know have knees back and so problems and that makes it harder to push on..trouble is its really good money and you be hard pressed to earn that working for the man...

Ha ha First person I thought of after reading the initial post. You go young fellow.

Fred's mowing
02-12-2013, 08:04 PM
Ha ha First person I thought of after reading the initial post. You go young fellow.

:laughing::laughing::laughing:I heard he was going to change his name to Methuselah's mowing :big grin.
Cheers Fred,

geoff
02-12-2013, 09:11 PM
:sad: turn it up.....Freddy....hahahahaha

simo
03-12-2013, 07:31 AM
You know the saying "work smarter not harder"
Employ a couple young lads and do quotes and edges..until D dAy

Fred's mowing
03-12-2013, 06:05 PM
:sad: turn it up.....Freddy....hahahahaha

Turn it up, have'nt heard that in a while, how about strike me pink ???
Cheers Fred.

geoff
03-12-2013, 09:23 PM
onya Freddy......

PaulG
03-12-2013, 10:41 PM
I don't listen to that little voice.

I try not to listen to that little voice either but tonight it's screaming at me, "Ouch, oww, oooow, ****, jees, aaaahh".

PhilG
04-12-2013, 05:58 PM
I have been doing it for 24 years now but I started young. A friend of my Dads started a couple of years before I did and still going at 70+

RSM-Gazza
05-12-2013, 04:08 PM
How long, as long as they make Voltaren Gel Rub and Carlton Draught. :)

AJD Mowing
05-12-2013, 06:56 PM
That works as long as you dont change the recipe, if you use xxxx for example you would have diarrhea most of the time... :)

Redeye
05-12-2013, 07:05 PM
That works as long as you dont change the recipe, if you use xxxx for example you would have diarrhea most of the time... :)

xxxx...... funny, the qld premier gives most people the poo's too - mind you, he is an ar5ehole

courty
05-12-2013, 09:24 PM
No one drinks that **** anymore :-)
I've just had a mid life epiphany, dropped 10kgs and the durries,back surfing and paddling, never felt better.
Barring any pre-existing problems,Look after yourself and you can go for as long as you want

GAMS
05-12-2013, 10:35 PM
I picked up mowing again at 58 after 20 years behind a desk so to speak. I did it 20 years ago and I love it more today and hope to go to 70+. No more pushing mowers now, invested in some great ride on gear and have been targeting the hillsides and acreage. Enough to keep me out of trouble and I am not competing with everyone else as it is a specialised field. I reckon you got to spend your years mowing and pushing a mower to develop a u-beaut business plan that will allow you slow down a little but still enjoy the outdoors. Loved the previous post / idea about the small nursery. Great stuff. GAMS / Bruce

AJD Mowing
07-12-2013, 05:22 AM
Good onya Courty!!!
You see some old people limping around and I think half their problem is they dont do any exercise... What better exercise is there than having a big walk every day in people's gardens. Hey just had an idea :thinking You see people in a park with a personal trainer paying to exersize, or woman who have a personal trainer that walks with them around the block, why not advertise your business as Lawn Mowing and fitness instructor Free Workouts!! take all these people that pay for exercise and get them pushing a mower :wave-hi:

Scooby Steve
08-12-2013, 03:50 PM
How long can we do this work.........depends on how smart you operate. Seen plenty of guys over the years do the long days you know the ones, the 7.30am start through to the 7.30pm finish and work the 7 days through the warmer months, year after year and guess what eventually something gives. Can name quite a few blokes that have died early from cancers from doing this job, they worked hard and for long hours and a fair few of them died with not much to show for it. Seen plenty give the game away after 10 years or so of hard slog due to bung knees, backs, hips, feet or they were simple just worn out. On the flip side i've seen plenty operate there business properly and work shorter days and a max 5 days a week and they are still going strong, your body is like most things it wears out eventually but if you read the warning signs work smarter rather than harder, you will be able to do this for as long as you want. My Dad did this job for thirty years and it wasn't until he hit 80 that he fell to bits, more to do with Parkinson's rather than the work itself. Definitely longevity in this game if you play it right.

DavidS
08-12-2013, 06:43 PM
Well I am about to give it up due to many injuries from Cricket and Footy when I was young have caught up to me but before they can have anymore effect, I have decided to retire from full time business and to spend more time travelling this great country and just work when I need to or want a bit more pocket money. I will miss the business as it a great place to be, Outdoors, your own boss, meeting people and helping them with their gardens and lawns. The other side is I will be able to see the places in Australia that I have only seen on TV or pictures I can arrive when I want and leave when I want. If I want to go to some place it will not matter how long it takes for us to get there as we will have no schedule, if we come across a really nice place then we may stay for a few weeks or months. This is what the business has given me, the money and the desire to be able to travel full time for the next 10 or so years.

courty
08-12-2013, 06:51 PM
Enjoy DavidS, make sure you give us a yell if your near by.

DavidS
08-12-2013, 06:57 PM
No worries Courty, only trouble is you are on the Gold Coast.:( I don't like bit cities LOL. No we will be there as some of our Grandkids live there.

DavidS
08-12-2013, 06:58 PM
Now I only have to sell the Business and house and we can be off.:wave-hi:

PaulG
09-12-2013, 01:09 AM
Make sure you come out here too on your travels David! September (Carnival Of Flowers) is the best time to see the parks and gardens at their best ;)

great nature
09-12-2013, 05:57 AM
Gonna miss your excellent gardening posts, David, but I'm so excited for you. Make sure you getcha selves a really great camera and post some pics on the forum. Remind us what we're working towards. Happy travels.

edbeek
09-12-2013, 06:37 AM
Gonna miss your excellent gardening posts, David, but I'm so excited for you. Make sure you getcha selves a really great camera and post some pics on the forum. Remind us what we're working towards. Happy travels.

+1. Have really appreciated your helpful posts on the forum over the last few years.

Plenty of room here to park up the Winnebago if you are in the area. But be warned you will have to check for stowaways as you leave. :)

DavidS
09-12-2013, 11:38 AM
GN, I will still be in the forum when we have access to internet so will still have something to say, Ed my Border Collie will let me know if we have stowaways, we are the only ones allowed to share her Dog Kennel on wheels LOL Thanks.

And yes I will try to make you guys jealous with some pics of places, gardens and whatever strikes me as funny or otherwise.

AJD Mowing
09-12-2013, 07:25 PM
Thats fantastic David good on you!!! Have you got a camper van or caravan?

Fred's mowing
09-12-2013, 08:38 PM
Well I am about to give it up due to many injuries from Cricket and Footy when I was young have caught up to me but before they can have anymore effect, I have decided to retire from full time business and to spend more time travelling this great country and just work when I need to or want a bit more pocket money. I will miss the business as it a great place to be, Outdoors, your own boss, meeting people and helping them with their gardens and lawns. The other side is I will be able to see the places in Australia that I have only seen on TV or pictures I can arrive when I want and leave when I want. If I want to go to some place it will not matter how long it takes for us to get there as we will have no schedule, if we come across a really nice place then we may stay for a few weeks or months. This is what the business has given me, the money and the desire to be able to travel full time for the next 10 or so years.

Congrats David on having the balls to follow your dream!
I for one think its fantastic & one day hope to do something similar.
Great to hear you're NOT leaving the forum as Im sure that you are one of the most respected posters on here.
Many ppl myself included, have benefitted from the knowledge you have imparted.
Good luck with your venture.
Cheers Fred.

DavidS
10-12-2013, 09:23 AM
Thanks AJ and Fred, The Van is a Jayco Sterling 21 foot with ensuite, washing machine for the BOSS, Solar and will have Lithium Batteries for power. I will be using a either a Holden Colorado or Isuzu D Max as a tow vehicle.
Fred I have also learnt a lot from you and others within this Forum and it's a great way to talk to other people who are in the trade, Bounce ideas off, ask advice and just have some fun.

Redeye
10-12-2013, 09:43 AM
Congrats David on having the balls to follow your dream!
I for one think its fantastic & one day hope to do something similar.
Great to hear you're NOT leaving the forum as Im sure that you are one of the most respected posters on here.
Many ppl myself included, have benefitted from the knowledge you have imparted.
Good luck with your venture.
Cheers Fred.

exactly right!! best of luck to you both on your new adventure

geoff
10-12-2013, 03:57 PM
Congrats David on having the balls to follow your dream!
I for one think its fantastic & one day hope to do something similar.
Great to hear you're NOT leaving the forum as Im sure that you are one of the most respected posters on here.
Many ppl myself included, have benefitted from the knowledge you have imparted.
Good luck with your venture.
Cheers Fred.
here here .....well said Fred..David wish you all the best for the future and so pleased you will stay in contact with the forum as the source of knowledge will remain...thanks for you valuable posts that ive certainly learnt and enjoyed

AJD Mowing
10-12-2013, 05:06 PM
Thanks AJ and Fred, The Van is a Jayco Sterling 21 foot with ensuite, washing machine for the BOSS, Solar and will have Lithium Batteries for power. I will be using a either a Holden Colorado or Isuzu D Max as a tow vehicle.
Fred I have also learnt a lot from you and others within this Forum and it's a great way to talk to other people who are in the trade, Bounce ideas off, ask advice and just have some fun.

Sounds fantastic I bet you can't wait to set off? A couple of years back I was behind a Winnabago, On the back they had a big sign "RECICLED HIPPIES" When I went passed they were both in their 70s living the dream.. I hope to do this one day as well..
Cheers
Dean

imoww
10-12-2013, 05:41 PM
When i do inner Sydney & CBD areas, theres no parking for a trailer. I have to lift the Honda 216 out of the truck every time.
Its a bastard on ya back. So ive added 2 ramps to the ute's collection of odds and ends.
I should be able to continue for at least 20 years from now.

Redeye
10-12-2013, 06:26 PM
hey Dean, I know where there's a cheap "big blue bus" !!

BSD
10-12-2013, 06:35 PM
And I just hit 60!..pest control/ lawnmowing dude. (only the easy ones..and I mean real easy)...but together for 2 hrs work its ok.I have 2 to do this week, then I'll have a rest. But lugging gear about and ferals, and rubbish or BIG hedges, small tree lopping, nup.:marilyn

AJD Mowing
10-12-2013, 09:15 PM
hey Dean, I know where there's a cheap "big blue bus" !!

Tell him I will buy it if he throws in the Stradivarius

Scooby Steve
19-12-2013, 04:08 PM
Be sure to hang around David as we all enjoy your posts. Don't know whether you can be bothered but a thread where you give us a snap shot of some of the towns you go through would be an enjoyable read, pro's and con's or something similar. Have fun, and enjoy the ride.

DavidS
20-12-2013, 05:40 AM
Thanks Scooby, will do something along those lines. I will be online when I can, as I do enjoy the Forum, sometimes I don't but the majority of times it's a good read and lots of fun and I have learnt lots over the years from others. Cheers David

Arfa Brayne
20-01-2014, 01:14 PM
"How long can we do this work?" -
................ Reminds me of when I was in my 20's, Hang gliding, and when you'd land on the beach the babes would innocently ask "is it hard?" or "how long can you stay up for?"

In my 30's I could work like a Mule - and did.
Passed the "40 gate" and it started to get a bit more difficult as the body slowed down, by 45 I'd given away solo tree lopping big eucalypts (got smashed a few times and found bones broke a lot easier in your 40's)
By 50 the back was so shot, gave away gardening and hedging.
Now all I do is 40 jobs a week (3 days) lawn mowing. Still pull a $1k a week. Use self drive mulchers.

I know a bloke 75 who still does 15 lawns a week.
If I pace it right and don't stuff the back anymore by being stupid, reckon I can match 15 lawns at 75 years.
Should be dead by 80, but all the old codgers I know who pass the 80 gate are old farmers who just keep doing a bit of manual work and don't get stressed out about stuff.

Could get hit by a bus next week.

BSD
20-01-2014, 08:04 PM
I think it keeps us fit, just do what you need without busting your backside, can you imagine some guys retire after working in the same job year in year out in some stinking factory, retire at 60-65 then get bored and karking it around 70 yo.
"How long can we do this work?" -
................ Reminds me of when I was in my 20's, Hang gliding, and when you'd land on the beach the babes would innocently ask "is it hard?" or "how long can you stay up for?"

In my 30's I could work like a Mule - and did.
Passed the "40 gate" and it started to get a bit more difficult as the body slowed down, by 45 I'd given away solo tree lopping big eucalypts (got smashed a few times and found bones broke a lot easier in your 40's)
By 50 the back was so shot, gave away gardening and hedging.
Now all I do is 40 jobs a week (3 days) lawn mowing. Still pull a $1k a week. Use self drive mulchers.

I know a bloke 75 who still does 15 lawns a week.
If I pace it right and don't stuff the back anymore by being stupid, reckon I can match 15 lawns at 75 years.
Should be dead by 80, but all the old codgers I know who pass the 80 gate are old farmers who just keep doing a bit of manual work and don't get stressed out about stuff.

Could get hit by a bus next week.

bb1
20-01-2014, 08:57 PM
I think it keeps us fit, just do what you need without busting your backside, can you imagine some guys retire after working in the same job year in year out in some stinking factory, retire at 60-65 then get bored and karking it around 70 yo.

That reminds me of when I was in an IT role working for a large corporate prior to my tree change, there were so many who would retire and within 6 month they were gone.

ASTRO
20-01-2014, 09:09 PM
I think it keeps us fit, just do what you need without busting your backside, can you imagine some guys retire after working in the same job year in year out in some stinking factory, retire at 60-65 then get bored and karking it around 70 yo.

The old man worked for the woods'n'forest all his life retired at 65yo passed away at the age of 70yo.
Totally agree BSD boredom/lack of meaning of life will kill you.
I have 3 hobbies + work which will take me hopefully into grumpy old b@@turd age.
Cheers Astro.

imoww
21-01-2014, 06:04 AM
Im gonna have to take up a hobby then... IS porn a hobby? may have to take up something else...

The old man worked for the woods'n'forest all his life retired at 65yo passed away at the age of 70yo.
Totally agree BSD boredom/lack of meaning of life will kill you.
I have 3 hobbies + work which will take me hopefully into grumpy old b@@turd age.
Cheers Astro.

TomS
21-01-2014, 09:40 AM
Thanks AJ and Fred, The Van is a Jayco Sterling 21 foot with ensuite, washing machine for the BOSS, Solar and will have Lithium Batteries for power. I will be using a either a Holden Colorado or Isuzu D Max as a tow vehicle.
Fred I have also learnt a lot from you and others within this Forum and it's a great way to talk to other people who are in the trade, Bounce ideas off, ask advice and just have some fun.

Thought about a cage on the back for a mower and some chaff bags? Plenty of caravan parks could do with a bit of TLC?

Tom

DavidS
21-01-2014, 09:58 AM
No thanks Tom, I will let them supply the mower and bags LOL Thanks for the idea.

bulletproofhead
21-01-2014, 07:23 PM
hahaha > Tomo , but that's about the right time slots I'm used to too

DavidS
22-01-2014, 02:57 PM
Our family has a history of males dying in there sixties so I reckon that I will have about 6 to 10 years of being bored before I cark it. I won't be bored, got my fishing pole, kayak, remote control helicopter and a S**t load of tv series and movies to watch plus my best friend the other half. We also will have the great outdoors of Oz to keep us amused. Can't wait!!!!!!

PaulG
22-01-2014, 04:10 PM
That's it mate. None of us really know. Live every day the best you can and enjoy life with family/friends as often as you can.

DavidS
11-02-2014, 10:52 AM
Business sold new owner takes over end of the month. He is out working with me now learning the way to do things and meeting the clients. He probably thinks I am pedantic over lawn, edges and cleaning up but that how I have always done it and that's why I have such a good business now, everyone is happy with the way I do their lawns and gardens. Can't wait for the house to sell then it's on my bike and we are off.

BeetleJuice
11-02-2014, 04:15 PM
Another 9 years for me and that takes me to 70

4 Gardens
11-02-2014, 05:31 PM
Another 9 years for me and that takes me to 70

Well done!!!!...

DavidS
13-02-2014, 05:01 AM
Bugger that, you need to retire and enjoy what you got left, see the world or Oz and get old gracefully not slaving your guts out for people who really don't care about you as long as you turn up and do their work. Congrats tho on still doing it at 61

PaulG
13-02-2014, 01:10 PM
I reckon I'll still be doing it until I can no longer walk or lift. I have no other finances to fall back on.

RSM-Gazza
13-02-2014, 04:48 PM
No Stress pleasurable lifestyle where you work the hours you want and choose/develop the client base that provides the income whilst presenting an enjoyable days work to wake for each day.

Bring on tomorrow :)

great nature
13-02-2014, 07:32 PM
Hey congrats david. Your dream is really happening. Woot woot! I cant wait to retire. I'm 38, so 30-50 odd years to go, now its 49 years, 364 days, 23 hrs and 59 minutes to go.
Havent been on here for a million years. Good to be back.

Fred's mowing
13-02-2014, 08:15 PM
Another 9 years for me and that takes me to 70

Great stuff Beetle but why not take a leaf out of David's book b4 they turn the lights out ?
Hopefully not for many years yet & as long as you're happy, go for it !
Cheers Fred.

Blaktop
16-02-2014, 10:25 PM
I'm with you DavidS, sold my business 3 weeks ago, just finished the handover, and heading off to Alice Springs in a couple of weeks to do a bit of tour guiding (a previous occupation) until the wife gets rid of her cafe. Then the plan is rent the house, buy a bus (motorhome) and go see Australia. There's plenty of work out there, you just got to be where the work is. I'll be 60 in a couple of months, had a recent medical and the doctors say I'm "disgustingly fit" for a bloke my age.....doesn't always feel that way....but then I look around at other blokes my age....:). Can't see me giving work away altogether but a bit of variety in between fishing and general holidaying looks good to me.

DavidS
17-02-2014, 05:29 AM
Congrats Blaktop, might see you on the road.

Blaktop
17-02-2014, 10:13 PM
If it actually comes to fruition I'll post a pic of the bus so you recognise us....:)

DavidS
22-02-2014, 04:35 PM
We are headed to Frankston Vic on the 4th of March to look at new home, if S.W.M.O says yes we will pay deposit on it. Then it's action stations as we have to still sell the house and find a good Holden Colorado or Isuzu Dmax to tow it.

Fred's mowing
23-02-2014, 10:26 AM
We are headed to Frankston Vic on the 4th of March to look at new home, if S.W.M.O says yes we will pay deposit on it. Then it's action stations as we have to still sell the house and find a good Holden Colorado or Isuzu Dmax to tow it.

Franganistan !:frightene

We're only just down the road from there & can hear the bombing at night.

Only kiddin.;)
Its a long way from Temora, do you have any ties with the area or, is that where the dart landed ?
Im quite familiar with the area so if I can be of any assistance in any way, let me know.

Those Colorado's & Dmax's must be mighty powerful vehicles:laughing:
Cheers Fred.

DavidS
24-02-2014, 04:40 AM
Actually that's where the caravan is that S.W.M.O. likes so that is where we are going. I will have the GPS on board so will be a test for it and me as I have not used it before. Played with it but never used it for a long trip. Thanks for the offer Fred if I get lost I'll ring you:smileydevil.

joeymoey
26-02-2014, 05:36 PM
I was walking down the main street in Bacchus Marsh the other day and saw a fellow contractor (70 year old)

Offered to have coffee and we spoke, he still does 15 lawns a week plus gardening, he said the key is knowing your limits and respecting them as well as eating the right food. I've got a tiny feeling he might be onto something seeing as he's 70 and still fighting fit and strong.

GarciaS
16-03-2014, 08:02 PM
Ive only lasted 3 years, bursitis and torn labrum in my right shoulder (3 cortizone injections later no better), 6 months ago I tore my labrum in my left shoulder, going in for an operation to stich it up on Thursday, going to be in a sling 24/7 for 6 weeks, no work for a further 4 months after that, then repeat for my right shoulder. Cartilage on both shoulders are worn too. I'm only 34! I dont know if I should keep going after my operations or cut my losses and do something else.

NLALM
17-03-2014, 06:03 PM
Mate I have done the exact same thing as you but in my hips, bursitis torn labrum then did the other side . You only have labrums in your hips and shoulders. I am still going after having stem cell injections. Good luck with the operation..

steveo
01-04-2014, 10:35 AM
The secret to longevity is genetics, if you can choose the right parents your on a winner :-)

Greenie
25-04-2014, 06:37 PM
i must be lucky, im 32 and this is my 3rd season, Love this job so much!!,

BSD
20-05-2014, 06:43 PM
Mate of mine died yesterday, bus driver 20 plus years, never smoked, drank a bit, financially secure, worked because he loved his job, 68yo and was due to retire in 9 days. What do you say, I just bloody cant believe it. (home having a break on his split shift, heart attack. .....gone)

RSM-Gazza
20-05-2014, 08:07 PM
Mate of mine died yesterday, bus driver 20 plus years, never smoked, drank a bit, financially secure, worked because he loved his job, 68yo and was due to retire in 9 days. What do you say, I just bloody cant believe it. (home having a break on his split shift, heart attack. .....gone)
That's so sad at the age of 68 with a secure retirement to grin about and one would have presumed a healthy body, sorry to here such. I had a best friend when we where both 27 and he was football fit having a heart attach without warning.

Been having discussion with my brother over the past three weeks in detail as to both of us pulling back on work and living it up a little and laying back. As we both are in a position to do so.
But, you know what, we both just want to keep working hard because its all we know what to do.
Of late we have experienced visiting Aged Care Nursing Homes 3 times a day and think, that's where we will be soon if the big "C" doesn't cut us short. Seeing one of those places with frequency since Xmas makes one think differently as we push forward in life. I'm 55, brother 59.

Here we see BSD's Mate sadly pass at 68 unexpectedly. One never know what the dice will roll tomorrow.

Redeye
20-05-2014, 08:14 PM
I lost a good mate last week, you probably read about it, died while rock fishing at Seal Rocks - only 45, the greatest fisherman I ever knew and he died doing what he loves but still......

steveo
21-05-2014, 09:10 AM
I lost a good mate last week, you probably read about it, died while rock fishing at Seal Rocks - only 45, the greatest fisherman I ever knew and he died doing what he loves but still......

I read about that. Sorry to hear that redeye.

steveo
21-05-2014, 09:19 AM
A lot of people (as do I worry about the big c) especially if it runs in the family. GP once told me don't worry too much about the Big C, worry more about your heart. That surprised me but I suppose at least you can ask for a regular heart check up which is more likely to pick up heart issues and there is a lot they can do to save you from heart problems. I worry more about how my car is running than how my heart is running. Maybe it's a good idea to learn how to recognise the symptons of heart attack and stroke, especially in this game when your often on your pat malone in backyards with no one in the house and often no-one (not even family) knowing where you are.

BeetleJuice
21-05-2014, 09:35 AM
A lot of people (as do I worry about the big c) especially if it runs in the family. GP once told me don't worry too much about the Big C, worry more about your heart. That surprised me but I suppose at least you can ask for a regular heart check up which is more likely to pick up heart issues and there is a lot they can do to save you from heart problems. I worry more about how my car is running than how my heart is running. Maybe it's a good idea to learn how to recognise the symptons of heart attack and stroke, especially in this game when your often on your pat malone in backyards with no one in the house and often no-one (not even family) knowing where you are.

I had my heart attack 4 years ago and have a stent installed,try keeping your cholesterol low in avoiding a heart attack.

Brother in law had a aneurysm last week and fell to the ground dead,got CPR and is now recovering after brain surgery.His current lawn round of 12 years is now in limbo.i can't help as the round is too far away from me

One day your here next your gone,it happens so easily.

So what happens to your lawn round if you can't work ?? Have you got a plan in place ??I have as a member of ALMA

steveo
21-05-2014, 10:07 AM
Hey beetlejuice, I bet the heart attack was an interesting experience to say the least. I hope things are going well for you and you live a long and happy life.
I have found that working mostly with the old and sick that I appreciate the little things a bit more than when I was under the flouros behind a computer. I really had no idea how many sick, old, frail, lonely people are living in your average suburb. It really does open your eyes and make you appreciate your own health.

BeetleJuice
21-05-2014, 02:15 PM
Hey beetlejuice, I bet the heart attack was an interesting experience to say the least. I hope things are going well for you and you live a long and happy life.
I have found that working mostly with the old and sick that I appreciate the little things a bit more than when I was under the flouros behind a computer. I really had no idea how many sick, old, frail, lonely people are living in your average suburb. It really does open your eyes and make you appreciate your own health.

Thanks steveo,i would like to die of old age as the prefered method.Health is good now.

We have a large older generation here in Adelaide and we get a large share of it,i do get tired hearing stories of them getting ripped off by so many trades that are servicing them

Cranbourne Lawnmowing
21-05-2014, 08:28 PM
70 if the current government has anything to do with it . I can see a lot of grey haired blokes with unregistered businesses. Truth is it would suit me fine, pension a couple of lawns each week, a bit of golf , fishing etc beautiful. Now if I can just last till that age .:cool:

ollie up
21-05-2014, 08:43 PM
A lot of people (as do I worry about the big c) especially if it runs in the family. GP once told me don't worry too much about the Big C, worry more about your heart. That surprised me but I suppose at least you can ask for a regular heart check up which is more likely to pick up heart issues and there is a lot they can do to save you from heart problems. I worry more about how my car is running than how my heart is running. Maybe it's a good idea to learn how to recognise the symptons of heart attack and stroke, especially in this game when your often on your pat malone in backyards with no one in the house and often no-one (not even family) knowing where you are.

When I was on holidays a couple of years ago I fluked upon a book about the effectiveness of diet in significantly reducing the risk of developing cancer. It was really eye opening. I can't believe that we don't get more info on as a matter of course. There is probably loads of good books on the topic. The one I happened to read was called "Foods to fight cancer" (Beliveau and Gingras), if anyone's interested.

geoff
21-05-2014, 09:42 PM
:help:Beetlejiuce says "So what happens to your lawn round if you can't work ?? Have you got a plan in place ??I have as a member of ALMA"
Good question..what plan do we have in place?????
Ive a few Contractors that could cover my work and use my insurance to cover the bills but with waiting periods and depending on the time of the year i am not sure if things would work out .

troppo
21-05-2014, 10:44 PM
If you have any concerns about your ticker, carry some organic (stronger) cayenne pepper with you at all times. Just one teaspoon in a glass of water will stop any heart attack in its' tracks.

lawn order
23-05-2014, 12:35 AM
Some Sage, Marjory and you are old father Thyme,
In less than 12 months I will be in my seventieth year.
Seek the advice of a young doctor, preferably a lady. They will love you for your efforts of life preservation and ability to support your wife, her children and her grandchildren.
Imagine a lady GP who attends an endless line of largely bodyweight wise defeatist
patients, and then you walk in.
It must be a joy for her to meet someone having a red hot crack at life and with a slimmer waist than the last visitor.
Likely that your BP & cholesterol is a little better also.
A couple of years ago things changed for me.
Our family was blessed/cursed with a plague/pleasure of mobs of grandchildren.
I lost my wife, best ever ride on driver and mate worker, to them.
Time to bail! I was up for sale.
A golfing mate, and a cash receiving acquaintance expressed an interest in half of the business.
Now, in just two years, we turnover more than twice the offered business.
We are more selective and pick the best jobs.
He has dropped 4 {four} belt notches.
Love it, find a good physio and young doctor and walk with a straight spine strut.
If you buy tucker, buy it at subway and such, avoid fryers, get your drink from taps.
I bet at an 80yo you will still whinge, when you are still following a mower.
Cheers
lawn order

PaulG
23-05-2014, 01:09 AM
Off for my second orthopaedic appointment at the hospital this morning to see whether I get on the waiting list for hip-replacement surgery. Best part about it all, the degeneration in my right hip is now starting to speed up as well as my left already being stuffed. 'Tramal' slow-release painkillers every day now just to help me work and help me sleep.

ollie up
25-05-2014, 08:29 PM
Some Sage, Marjory and you are old father Thyme,
In less than 12 months I will be in my seventieth year.
Seek the advice of a young doctor, preferably a lady. They will love you for your efforts of life preservation and ability to support your wife, her children and her grandchildren.
Imagine a lady GP who attends an endless line of largely bodyweight wise defeatist
patients, and then you walk in.
It must be a joy for her to meet someone having a red hot crack at life and with a slimmer waist than the last visitor.
Likely that your BP & cholesterol is a little better also.
A couple of years ago things changed for me.
Our family was blessed/cursed with a plague/pleasure of mobs of grandchildren.
I lost my wife, best ever ride on driver and mate worker, to them.
Time to bail! I was up for sale.
A golfing mate, and a cash receiving acquaintance expressed an interest in half of the business.
Now, in just two years, we turnover more than twice the offered business.
We are more selective and pick the best jobs.
He has dropped 4 {four} belt notches.
Love it, find a good physio and young doctor and walk with a straight spine strut.
If you buy tucker, buy it at subway and such, avoid fryers, get your drink from taps.
I bet at an 80yo you will still whinge, when you are still following a mower.
Cheers
lawn order

Spot on Lawn Order! Your an inspiration. Subway it is!

ollie up
25-05-2014, 08:33 PM
Off for my second orthopaedic appointment at the hospital this morning to see whether I get on the waiting list for hip-replacement surgery. Best part about it all, the degeneration in my right hip is now starting to speed up as well as my left already being stuffed. 'Tramal' slow-release painkillers every day now just to help me work and help me sleep.

Good luck PaulG. Hope you get on soon. It worked well for one of my relatives.

PaulG
25-05-2014, 08:43 PM
I don't want it but I need it. I'm only 41.

Bluey
26-05-2014, 12:49 AM
I'm 54 about to turn 55 in June. How long can I do this. Well I have a positive attitude . I approach each day as new challenge. Like Lawn Order I dont think there is a limit, Go until you cant do it. Know when to pull the pin and when you do have something to keep you occupied or you will die

joeymoey
26-05-2014, 01:28 AM
That's the key Bluey!

You've gotta keep occupied or you'll kick the bucket.
My grandpa is hitting 90 in less than a month - his key has been keeping active on the physical, social and mental front.
He's nearly as busy as me (Most people that know me think I'm on ecstasy to keep doing what I'm doing)

Cheers to longevity!



I'm 54 about to turn 55 in June. How long can I do this. Well I have a positive attitude . I approach each day as new challenge. Like Lawn Order I dont think there is a limit, Go until you cant do it. Know when to pull the pin and when you do have something to keep you occupied or you will die

imoww
26-05-2014, 07:06 AM
guys, im now 51 and have had a minor set back recently (broken wrist) but im still going on...
ill keep working until i can no longer work. my aim is 80 odd years...
i know of 3 lawnies that care 83-85 still hammering on....
As for gardening and hedging , im not sure how long i could do that

AJD Mowing
26-05-2014, 08:37 AM
I'm 54 about to turn 55 in June. How long can I do this. Well I have a positive attitude . I approach each day as new challenge. Like Lawn Order I dont think there is a limit, Go until you cant do it. Know when to pull the pin and when you do have something to keep you occupied or you will die

Its better to burn out than it is to rust hey hey my my (Neil Young) :)

cadase
26-05-2014, 09:43 AM
20/11/2034, give or take a day (Uncle Harry's pisssing in the bath, The Living End)

Mow And Go
26-05-2014, 01:35 PM
lol one of the most under-rated TLE songs out ...happy to see I am not the only listener ;)

AJD Mowing
26-05-2014, 07:44 PM
20/11/2034, give or take a day (Uncle Harry's pisssing in the bath, The Living End)

Roll On......:russ:

Mow And Go
26-05-2014, 08:06 PM
they were never the same when trav demsey left, best song by far would have to be either all torn down or save the day though ...although roll on is also a good play ...love how most of their songs have a slightly political under-tone without being so damn obvious like midnight oil lol

lawn order
28-05-2014, 12:15 AM
Struth, how close can you get!
Just two paces short of the Bath, pissed, slipped and swallowed the soap.
Weed & Feed.
Boom Boom

imoww
07-09-2014, 07:31 AM
Seams to be the positive thinking, and enjoying what we do and keep moving is the key to how long we can do this.

NLALM
24-10-2017, 06:04 PM
.......................................

NLALM
25-10-2017, 05:25 PM
I wrote a long post about how I am really struggling this year on my own, and how the pain has come back into my buttock and new hip , I wanted to add some more but somehow deleted the whole post. Anyway how long can we do this work ? Not much longer I feel, just when you really get a handle on how to run a good business and my body is letting me down, I wish I was fit and pain free got 15 years to go, so what am I gunna do

Bluey
25-10-2017, 06:49 PM
I wrote a long post about how I am really struggling this year on my own, and how the pain has come back into my buttock and new hip , I wanted to add some more but somehow deleted the whole post. Anyway how long can we do this work ? Not much longer I feel, just when you really get a handle on how to run a good business and my body is letting me down, I wish I was fit and pain free got 15 years to go, so what am I gunna do


here is what you posted mate. Took it off my notification email

Just been reading over this thread again, and the question how long can we do this work for is what I have been asking myself lately, I feel my time mowing could be coming to an end . I had my new hip almost 2 years ago now , at first it was all good ,I thought I would be able to get on with my life and my business pain free. Last Christmas my offsider retired , so since then I have been solo.
This year I have worked harder then I ever have , the pain in my left hip has come back a bit , but I have this constant pain in my left buttock that no doctor can find what is causing it. I am having another cortisone needle tomorrow, that will be three in a few weeks, they are just fishing as they don't know what's up with me. The pain is constant 24 hours a day it never leaves me, I have taken every tablet known to man ,tried every type of doctor or quack out there and nothing. The guys that know me , would know I have had this hip thing for 10 years, it has sent me broke, no health insurance , and bills beyond belief, new hip 28k yep pay before we play .
At the moment the only thing I look forward to is Friday arvos , I have a shower take an endone and relax, not the best way to live.
I have been dropping my harder jobs , as I haven't been able to find someone to help me, but even having a good offsider doesn't get me off my feet. I need a break, I don't know if I should sell up or cut back further, I just managed the winter , but at the moment I am swamped with work I cant see myself keeping this pace up till Christmas.

I would love to say I will keep going till I'm 70 but it aint gunna happen , every step I took today hurt my hip, it squeaks like a rusty gate , I also have a torn meniscus in my left knee, my right shoulder is not good, think I tore something in it about 6 months ago and it just wont get better, my left wrist pains terribly at times probably from the seven screws, I sound like a crock but I don't know what to do

Bluey
25-10-2017, 06:51 PM
All I can suggest is start looking at other avenue of work that can use your skills and experience but are not as hard on the body

RSM-Gazza
25-10-2017, 07:44 PM
Hard to say what path to take there, and most jobs seem to be P/Time or Casual these days for 24/7 flexibility for the employer. Plus employers push the weekend or evening/night in anything Retail or Hospitality.
But after being self employed, working for someone and being told when to take a 10min tea break and this what you do after lunch would be frightening hard.
I look at my wife's developing situation and we see your own personal situation unfolding. I guess you have scattered thoughts of a path to take, but its the unknown that's confronting.
When I left my career job of 33 yrs it was confronting whilst researching this forum in detail heading into a major career change.
I've just turned 59 and wife 56, so we are further into life's journey. Plus old employers+us have paved a nice Super for both of us which ='s security.
Stay Positive, but easier said than done.


One thing I've noticed at the busy Husky shop is the new mechanics of late that the owner has put on to enhance the workshop and service counter side of the business. Is that an avenue to consider?

Mick
26-10-2017, 02:27 PM
Sorry to hear the hip drama is persisting Mark. I know its very hard to keep going with that kind of pain, Im still having sciatica pain in the hip/buttock that seems to be getting harder to manage. Chiro gets his elbow right into the painful spot, it freaking kills but it massages the deep nerve in the buttock. He also manipulates the pelvis/lower back etc. Have an appointment in like 30mins actually!
I use a roller as well and stretching but like I said, its getting harder to manage. Frozen and ligament damage in my shoulder is slowly getting better, been over a year but I can see myself actually going for a surf later this summer. God Ive missed that, Ive s[ent a small fortune trying to speed up the healing and not sure if it actually did anything! But Im seriously lucky to of been able to get out and still have an ok income.
Theres a channel on YT that may be able to help with stretches, exercises etc. https://www.youtube.com/user/physicaltherapyvideo/videos
On aside, you might want to look into dropshipping, selling stuff on Facebook, ebay etc. Low cost to get into and something I was thinking of myself as a way to make some extra income. Plenty of info on YT if interested.

NLALM
26-10-2017, 03:05 PM
Hey Mick, good to hear from you brother, hopefully be up your way in March, I miss those waves. I have had a few surfs since my hip , it really is weird as its my front foot so its gotta move the furthest, my mind is willing but I'm just a little slow. This summer I will give it a nudge the boys are on me all the time to go for a wave.

Gaz the biggest problem I have is how would I be able to work for someone else. My story is, I started an apprenticeship at 15, lucky I had probably the best boss at his trade ,and the nicest bloke you could ever meet , old school , I listened and learned, never had a bad word between us, he made me do the hort course once I finished tafe I wasn't keen on another 3 years at tafe but I'm glad he pushed me to do it, hours were great so had plenty of time in the water. He was my last boss , at 19 I scored a head greenkeeping job , and every job since I have been the boss, so taking orders from some clown would be very hard to do. Plus when I am having a bad day with pain I pull the pin and go home. I don't think I could work 9 to 5 , or inside for that matter. I have been offered jobs over the years , golf courses , nurseries etc but when it comes to the crunch I make better money working less hours. Maybe employing someone is the answer but I'm not keen on all the problems that come with it. Every time I say I'm going to cut back I ditch a few then take ten on , cant help myself . I really need to act, maybe 6 months off would let my body heal

Mick
26-10-2017, 03:45 PM
Let me know when you're up, catch up for a beer and whinge or something! ;)

sterlo
26-10-2017, 07:49 PM
To look after myself I have an osteo appointment every 5 weeks and remedial massage every 3 weeks, doesn't make u bullet proof but ive never felt better than the last 18 months ive been going.

4 Gardens
27-10-2017, 07:32 PM
I go to the gym and see a personal trainer 2 x week. He tailors a program to help put everything (musccles / joints) back where they are suppose to be with stretching, weights. etc

My right shoulder was giving me some grief due to hunching it up etc when trimming hedges.
He makes me do exercises to make sure its in place and the muscles more relaxed and less tight

well worth the money I spend on him each week

steveo
27-10-2017, 09:37 PM
For anyone who is struggling physically consider throwing it in for a few months and let the body recover.

Sounds drastic and I'm sure it is easier said than done but if you are grinding yourself in to the ground you'll be forced to stop anyway. The difference is you won't have a choice.

A good rest might just do the trick and if it doesn't work, well at least you know.

glassngrass
28-10-2017, 07:08 AM
see a personal trainer 2 x week. He tailors a program to help put everything (musccles / joints) back where they are suppose to be with stretching, weights. etc

Sounds like your PT is a qualified Exercise Physiologist ?

4 Gardens
28-10-2017, 12:52 PM
Sounds like your PT is a qualified Exercise Physiologist ?

I am not sure.
He used to be a very good swimmer / almost olympics and has a very good knowledge of anatomy, when I describe my aches and pains to him he usually can tell me what it is and how to fix it

NLALM
28-10-2017, 04:40 PM
Yeah steve I have the same thoughts, if I could have 6 months off I feel my body would come good, I only had 8 weeks off after my hip , I mowed my own lawn after 2 weeks and the first week back did 40 lawns, I have been smashing myself ever since without a break. Weekends are gone before you know it and its on again .
I find swimming helps my problem a bit, but don't get enough time or I'm too rooted ,

When I had the 8 weeks off it was December January so the busiest time of the year , I lost a couple, some understood, and a mate did what he could. It was an emergency with me I found out on the Monday that it would be done on Thursday morning at 7am , so not much time to organize things.

If I took 6 months off I would have to sell the business first as I would lose the lot otherwise. This has been one of my ideas, also selling part of it , or employing someone.

BeetleJuice
29-10-2017, 10:15 AM
Currently i run 5 trimmers and 4 SP mowers for a reason

I always take two trimmers with me everyday
2 trimmers are 24 & 25cc (stihl) one for edging with a blade and one for horizontal trimming along walls etc
The other 2 trimmers are 22 & 23cc (echo & Husq) edger and line trimmer
During the heavier growth the stihls get used for the power and during the drier times the other two trimmers get used so my back can have a rest and when switching over you can tell and feel the weight difference.

Same with mowers i'll use a Toro pressed deck during the drier months when theres not much to be cut
It's called adapting to current conditions and making life easier saving me less trips to the chiro

Switching out work tools,just something to consider which may keep you blokes going a bit longer

South East Mowing
29-10-2017, 08:53 PM
Hey Mick, good to hear from you brother, hopefully be up your way in March, I miss those waves. I have had a few surfs since my hip , it really is weird as its my front foot so its gotta move the furthest, my mind is willing but I'm just a little slow. This summer I will give it a nudge the boys are on me all the time to go for a wave.

Gaz the biggest problem I have is how would I be able to work for someone else. My story is, I started an apprenticeship at 15, lucky I had probably the best boss at his trade ,and the nicest bloke you could ever meet , old school , I listened and learned, never had a bad word between us, he made me do the hort course once I finished tafe I wasn't keen on another 3 years at tafe but I'm glad he pushed me to do it, hours were great so had plenty of time in the water. He was my last boss , at 19 I scored a head greenkeeping job , and every job since I have been the boss, so taking orders from some clown would be very hard to do. Plus when I am having a bad day with pain I pull the pin and go home. I don't think I could work 9 to 5 , or inside for that matter. I have been offered jobs over the years , golf courses , nurseries etc but when it comes to the crunch I make better money working less hours. Maybe employing someone is the answer but I'm not keen on all the problems that come with it. Every time I say I'm going to cut back I ditch a few then take ten on , cant help myself . I really need to act, maybe 6 months off would let my body heal

Hi mate, just starting to get an idea how you feel. I was lucky enough not to buy a heap of equipment before I got some reports from docs.
I am now needing to employ people to get off the tools and have a couple guys around that can allow me more time on the ZTR. I have a very real chance of needing at least 3 months off for another operation some time in the future so need someone who will take an interest in the business and want to learn all aspects. Hard to find but gotta have a go as my brother only works part time and can't handle the workload if I go down. That's without any further hip and hand issues. Have to take the plunge and try other ways or face what I know is likely to happen, probably sooner than later.
It's not easy mate but you have to try think outside the square even though this is what you know and love doing. If you don't it will most likely bite you big time as I am learning right now:i dunno: