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Pain in the Grass
06-09-2004, 08:11 PM
Hi all. I currently operate under a registered business name. Howver I have been thinking about changing it...I did a name search on the ASIC web site and the name I was after was found to be available. However a weirsd thing happened this week...I was enquiring about a mowing trailer advertised in the trading post and my call was met with the guy's answering machine in which he stated "you have reached Hoe Bloggs from ''''''''Mowing.."

Turns out to be the same name as the one I want....My question is one of ethics.....He obviously has been trading under that name without having registered it...Woulld it be unethical of me to register that name and trade under it myself....This guy operates in an area that is nowhere near me..I fact I am in Sydney and he is on the northern NSW coast.....

Any inpout guys......I gotta mention that some others on this site dont seem to be registered in ASICS data base so maybe that could be an issue ..... :i dunno:

mick
06-09-2004, 08:32 PM
I would think that its illegal trading under someone elses name. He probably never payed taxes, insurance etc etc.

I changed my business name last year. Same basic name but change from ###### Lawn and Garden Maintenance to just ###### Lawn Mowing. Just made it easier to say and simplified it a bit! Didnt have any trouble because I had the original name.

sharon
06-09-2004, 08:47 PM
It was only by chance that you came across the name being used, so i would think it would be ok to use. Some people make money from registering names then selling them.You thought of it and it was not taken so why not use it. should not matter if he is no where near you, however if you don't want the same name and you want to change it then another name will come to you at a latter date. I am in the same boat thinking abou what to call my business am heading towards just using my name till such a time i think of something that i don' keep changing my mind about :) sharon

Alex Callaghan
06-09-2004, 08:52 PM
As far as I know it Illegal to trade under a buisness name that isn't registerd. Especially if your using that name on signage, Buisness cards, Stationary etc.

I would say go for it mate.

If this bloke isn't up for paying the $122 or what ever it is to secure his buisness name legaly I would say it would be far from unethical for you to go and register it and trade under it!!


Where's he from in northern NSW or whats his name??

I might know the wahcka!

Viceroy
06-09-2004, 08:54 PM
Are you going to take Zone Mowing. If you are you better talk to Stuie first. Thats his baby.
:aus-flag:

Stuie
06-09-2004, 09:08 PM
I should check if zone mowing is available! :laughing: If ya want it its yours HA HA just dont let Mick know he will give you heaps!!!!!!!LOL :p

Stuie
06-09-2004, 09:10 PM
Ive got TWO GREEN THUMBS available not that i have used it in two years.Good name was going to use it in the south and build up a standard mowing run then flog it

Barry
06-09-2004, 09:27 PM
I would go for it, you are the one doing it right way, besides if you didn't answer the trailer advertisment you would have never known.

Stuie
06-09-2004, 10:00 PM
Use it.Its fair game if he hasnt registered it.Used to work with a girl and she came up with the name MANIC BOTANIC.Made the mistake of talking about it to our other workmates.One went out and registered it.When she went a few weeks later the name was gone and she knew who it was who had it!
Do it tomorrow!
Stuart

mick
06-09-2004, 11:15 PM
I should check if zone mowing is available! :laughing: If ya want it its yours HA HA just dont let Mick know he will give you heaps!!!!!!!LOL :p

I just heard my name in this Zone of thread! hehe. I wont start that again! :laughing: I'd be stepping into the danger zone if I did!

haaaaaa ok, enough! :laughing:

Ebony
07-09-2004, 01:09 PM
Absolutely - go for it! Ethics have nothing to do with it, and IMO you are in the right no matter what way I look at it, legally, ethically, you name it.

As for the other guy, obviously there is the fact that trading under an unregistered name is not legal, he would know the risk and I would presume he would not expect a name that he is using without regitration to remain exclusive to himself.

Go for it...

Pain in the Grass
07-09-2004, 01:44 PM
Thanks guys, I will go for it...Just that when I'm a suillionaire from mowing this guy will be riding on my coat tails.....Ah,,who cares as long as I've made my bucks along the way....Only thing I need to do now is come up witha jingle for "Zone Mowing" ha ha :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: What about,,,"If you're prone to get overgrown don"t moan, get on the phone and call Zone!!!! :cool:

Tonyr
07-09-2004, 02:56 PM
,,,"If you're prone to get overgrown don"t moan, get on the phone and call Zone!!!!

=====


That is sooo wuckin funny, great jingle! very clever mate!

I should get one and get radio ads :)

Pain in the Grass
07-09-2004, 06:03 PM
Lawns too long and your in a rut? then call Tony at "A Perfect Cut"

pbm
07-09-2004, 06:52 PM
If the name is available that's his problem. If he wants to use that name exclusively then he should have registered it or maybe he didn't bother to renew it. That happened to me when I was mowing part time. I registered a business name and when the renewal was due i didn't bother and I found out that my mates cousin was using the same name which didn't bother me as I was planning on changing the name anyhow

bradtez
07-09-2004, 09:00 PM
My business name "Brad's Backyard"

My jingle "i turn up" In canberra thats all thats needed to get the job!! :laughing:

Brad

Tonyr
07-09-2004, 09:37 PM
Lawns too long and your in a rut? then call Tony at "A Perfect Cut"


Hey Mate, That is great! Love it!

Some of you guys have hidden talent....I'm not one ha ha!

I know ya joking, but I actually like that, and thinking seriously about using it!

GregG
07-09-2004, 09:44 PM
Well I have just registered today my business name as "Acres 2 Mow" so I hope that I can have something like " If you have acres 2 mow then we can help you at acres 2 mow" or something corny like that>

mick
07-09-2004, 11:57 PM
Tony...If you want more than someone who's a nut.... just call Tony at, A Perfect Cut!

Brad...
My name Brads Backyard is driving me bezurk.... I keep getting sued buy that Legend Don Burke!

mojo111
08-09-2004, 12:06 AM
Mick!

Micks meat market---- I'll munch ya lawn :laughing:

Now think of one for MOJO111??

mick
08-09-2004, 12:19 AM
My on line name sounds like just mojo. I cant get no lawns cos my work is just, so, so!

I am a boy who acts like a Do-Do. Yes you have it right, my name is just Mojo!

haaaaa :wave-hi:

mojo111
08-09-2004, 12:24 AM
Good on ya mate!! but don't ya think its to big a slogen to stick on the side of the ute?? :laughing: :laughing: might put them off :laughing:

mick
08-09-2004, 12:25 AM
Mick!

Micks meat market---- I'll munch ya lawn :laughing:

Now think of one for MOJO111??

I sound like a gigalo! :russ: :cool: :rolleyes:

Call Micks meat market when you get in strife. Ill munch ya lawn and then look at your wife!

mick
08-09-2004, 12:28 AM
Good on ya mate!! but don't ya think its to big a slogen to stick on the side of the ute?? :laughing: :laughing: might put them off :laughing:

You asked for a line, you could call it a fluke, I think that mojo just needs a big ute!

mojo111
08-09-2004, 12:30 AM
[QUOTE=mick]I sound like a gigalo! :russ: :cool: :rolleyes:

Call Micks meat market when you get in strife. Ill munch ya lawn and (take) your wife! :laughing:

see the diferance mick?? sounds more like a gigalo :laughing:

mick
08-09-2004, 12:36 AM
Yeah, could of done that but it leaves it more suggestive I think! :i dunno: I dont know, theres always a critic! Haaa :)

mojo111
08-09-2004, 12:36 AM
Time for bed I think. Big mulch job in the moring, better say hello to the little woman, nudge nudg wink wink :laughing:

mick
08-09-2004, 12:37 AM
Good luck, I've got bucklies! :who-knows

mojo111
08-09-2004, 12:42 AM
Don't worry be happy! good growth is around the corner. the rains not far away .Be back tomorow. cheers :wave-hi:

mick
08-09-2004, 12:46 AM
Supposed to get some tomorrow, yeah right! They've been saying that for weeks I ain't had bugger all. It just seems to go around me! :i dunno:

Tonyr
08-09-2004, 08:05 AM
Top Slogans there Mick, you southerners are sooo talented lol.

clever stuff.

matthew pitman
23-09-2004, 06:24 PM
taking about busniess names and people having the same,
last weekend i was up in newcaslte and was reading the local rag and found the same name as mine, i know mine is registerd so as soon as i got home i checked it out on the net and found there id three of us with almost the same name , the business names are so close they should be the same.

mick
23-09-2004, 07:50 PM
I did a search on my business name the other week and found a company with basically the same name as mine.
It changed from,
Mine.............."?????? ??????? Lawn Mowing."
Theres .........."?????? ??????? Gardening Services"

I dont really care because its in another state but I thought I paid for the name in registration fees etc.

bradtez
23-09-2004, 08:14 PM
Business names are run state by state, so somebody can use the same name as yours as long as they are across the border! Strange but true.

Brad

Topcat
23-09-2004, 09:03 PM
Yeh, benefit is, if you call the bloke with your same name :laughing:

You then may start to sound like a franchise.hehe :aus-flag: another one-Bugger :p

robscl
24-09-2004, 09:32 AM
Yah Brad's right about the state thing, if you have a business that you want to operate in more than one state you have to seperately register the name in each state.

Shouldn't really bother anyone in this game I reckon the travel time from a job in Sydney to a job in Melbourne would be a killer :i dunno:

Rob

mick
24-09-2004, 03:40 PM
I've had work in NSW (im in QLD) and your saying I should register my business in NSW as well!
Dont think so :i dunno: and I doubt many businesses do!!

robscl
24-09-2004, 04:08 PM
Nope just saying if ya want exclusivity to your name thats the way it is. Just means a bloke in NSW can legally trade under exactly the same name.

Rob

mick
24-09-2004, 04:17 PM
I can live with that mate! As long as there not "just" over the boarder I couldnt give a rats azz! I didnt know that was how it worked so its good to know!

administrator
07-05-2010, 12:39 PM
Registering business names may have changed .

How have the Newbies found Registering a business name in their states .

I have also seen Adam and Eves in qld . :who-knows

Adam & Eve Gardening Service is located in Bracken Ridge, QLD. ...

PaulG
07-05-2010, 08:11 PM
I find the whole process frustrating not to mention costly for what's actually involved.
And it looks like I am going to have to change my name as there's already a GCM registered in Qld and although it is inactive I can't use it. I was told even GCM and Yard Services is too similar to register :confused:

I have a couple of new names in mind which I'm starting to like more anyway so maybe it's a good thing...

Fred's mowing
07-05-2010, 08:35 PM
Registering business names may have changed .

How have the Newbies found Registering a business name in their states .

I have also seen Adam and Eves in qld . :who-knows
Oh well, what can u do :i dunno: .
We have b4 been confused with Adam& Eves adult shops down here in Vic :frightene .
Cheers Dean.

courty
07-05-2010, 08:44 PM
Coming up with a name not in use is the hard bit. I went in to the office of fair trading here on the coast,paid my money and 2 hrs later had my name,pretty painless really.


cheers

geoff1969
07-05-2010, 09:04 PM
registering your buisness name is part of the process , but if you take note of the amount of trailers getting around with there names on them = theres heaps , but if you search the names through the buisness registry about 30 percent aint listed .......

gjs
07-05-2010, 11:17 PM
Best way just use your own name that way you do not need to register as a business name just get an ABN it's a lot cheaper and no need to waste time in Government department office and we now how frustrating that can be.
I moved address and the mongrels want $100 to alter document and buy law you have to do it so will cancell business name and spen $100 on a good beer in stead
cheers
gjs

glassngrass
08-05-2010, 05:21 AM
Really? $100 - to register a change of address? This doesn't sound right. I've changed mine at no cost.

gjs
08-05-2010, 05:40 AM
Just checked it again it was $126 to register business and $46 to change details
cheers

Andy B
08-05-2010, 08:26 AM
I just re-did mine down here yesterday after seeing this thread. It was a pita in QLD down here I did it in next to no time online and it was only $81. I've gotta wait to see if they okay it but easier than getting money order etc like I did in QLD.

Andy B
11-05-2010, 03:20 PM
I just re-did mine down here yesterday after seeing this thread. It was a pita in QLD down here I did it in next to no time online and it was only $81. I've gotta wait to see if they okay it but easier than getting money order etc like I did in QLD.

The certificate arrived in this mornings post. No wonder they call us Queenslanders slow. :p

Wombat Garden Services
11-05-2010, 04:31 PM
Does anyone know if changing your business name affects your tax returns, I assume as long as your abn is the same it might be ok ?
I wanted to change to 'wombat lawn mowing' or 'wombat lawn & garden' but they are already taken :sad: , lots of wombats running around I guess :russ:

Scooby Steve
11-05-2010, 06:18 PM
Does anyone know if changing your business name affects your tax returns, I assume as long as your abn is the same it might be ok ?
I wanted to change to 'wombat lawn mowing' or 'wombat lawn & garden' but they are already taken :sad: , lots of wombats running around I guess :russ:

Just have to let the tax dept. or your accountant know thats all.

glassngrass
11-05-2010, 06:50 PM
Does anyone know if changing your business name affects your tax returns, I assume as long as your abn is the same it might be ok ?
I wanted to change to 'wombat lawn mowing' or 'wombat lawn & garden' but they are already taken :sad: , lots of wombats running around I guess :russ:
Probably not if the legal entity (ie. sole trader, partnership, company or trust) remains the same. Legal entities can trade under many different names. It is not the trading name, but the entity that lodges the return

brettly
11-05-2010, 06:53 PM
pretty painless for me in sydney..went in to the DoFT last week..they did a check with the name.. it was ok, within 15mins it was registerd.. 152$ , lets hope its worthy :)

The Local Gardener
12-05-2010, 11:59 AM
The certificate arrived in this mornings post. No wonder they call us Queenslanders slow. :p


Hey Andy, you are on line? :wave-hi:

PaulG
18-03-2011, 09:02 PM
Can anyone shed some light on the pros and cons of working under your own name vs a business name? I've been meaning to catch up with my accountant about this but I keen to first hear what peoples experiences are.

South East Mowing
18-03-2011, 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by Andy B
The certificate arrived in this mornings post. No wonder they call us Queenslanders slow


NO ANDY, THERES A few more reasons why they call queenslanders slow!!!!:laughing::scared:scared

imoww
19-03-2011, 03:27 AM
pretty painless for me in sydney..went in to the DoFT last week..they did a check with the name.. it was ok, within 15mins it was registerd.. 152$ , lets hope its worthy :)

Same here. Took them a few minutes

imoww
19-03-2011, 03:28 AM
Can anyone shed some light on the pros and cons of working under your own name vs a business name? I've been meaning to catch up with my accountant about this but I keen to first hear what peoples experiences are.

In NSW, The Dept of fair trading said if i trade under my full name only as the business... I dont have to register.

glassngrass
19-03-2011, 07:04 AM
In NSW, The Dept of fair trading said if i trade under my full name only as the business... I dont have to register.

It is also true that you will likely get away with using a personal bank account, rather than a business one which usually will cost you a little extra in monthly fees.

While it is true you can save on average a whopping $40 every two years, for marketing and branding you are likely much better to use a name that can be used for a domain name, or found in a search engine for those seeking gardening contractors. ie. Use of words such as gardening, mowing, handyman, domestic services, etc, will require registering a name, but are a no-brainer when googling for you

Additionally - if you ever wanted to sell your business, the goodwill associated with your business name is what a buyer wants. Nobody else can trade under your personal name - and likely you wouldn't want that anyhow.

Andy B
19-03-2011, 07:36 AM
Originally Posted by Andy B
The certificate arrived in this mornings post. No wonder they call us Queenslanders slow


NO ANDY, THERES A few more reasons why they call queenslanders slow!!!!:laughing::scared:scared

Not much gets by you, and you caught it within the year, congratulations! :laughing::laughing: Were you too busy winning a premiership or something? :D

PaulG
19-03-2011, 11:43 AM
Additionally - if you ever wanted to sell your business, the goodwill associated with your business name is what a buyer wants. Nobody else can trade under your personal name - and likely you wouldn't want that anyhow.


This is one of the factors that occured to me and is quite important.

I'm working under my own name at present and this is one of the reasons I haven't spent money on signage, business cards etc just yet.

Coming up with a business name I'm happy with has been tricky. A lot of those I liked are already taken.

I have an ABN and am putting money away to a separate account for GST. I gather with a registered business name however you would all be doing quarterly BAS's.

courty
19-03-2011, 12:15 PM
Paul
Are you registered for GST?

PaulG
19-03-2011, 12:21 PM
Not sure Courty. I presume I would have to pay it when I do my tax in July. Although I have heard this is one of the differences between using a business name and using your own name. Someone, who should know, once said to me that working under your own name you don't have to pay tax up to $75,000. I gather they meant GST but that hardly seems fair if I don't have to pay GST on what I collect.

courty
19-03-2011, 12:26 PM
I'm no expert but from what I know
If you earn under $75,000 no need to register,you still pay tax but don't have to collect GST.
If not registered it is illegal to collect GST or have the words "Tax or GST" on your invoices.

Probably best talk to your Accountant

PaulG
19-03-2011, 12:33 PM
Probably best talk to your Accountant

Agreed Courty!

glassngrass
19-03-2011, 02:19 PM
You are only registered for GST if you register - go figure! lol

Some don't register until they have to, however the advantage of registering when you start out is you may buy a lot of equipment. This means you get the GST back and may even get a GST refund.
GST registration also makes you more attractive to businesses (who can claim back the GST that you charge)

GST is on your ABN - not a registered trading name.
GST and business structure (sole trader, partnership, trust or company) is a discussion you should have with your accountant even before you commence - get it right from the start

PaulG
19-03-2011, 02:45 PM
GST is on your ABN - not a registered trading name.

Can you expand on what you mean here David?

glassngrass
19-03-2011, 03:07 PM
It is easy to confuse what a business actually is.
eg.
I operate as a family trust, and trade under four different registered names.
As an example, one name is Vanguard Bookkeeping, another is Glass'n'Grass.
While I might think of these different activities as different businesses, they operate thru the same family trust, so from a tax perspective there is just one business (with four different income streams).
My family trust is the entity that 'trades' and so this trust is registered with an ABN (andfor GST), also a tax file number.
If you trade as a sole trader, then likely the ABN will be registered to YOU as an individual who is trading.
Registering a trading name simply links the trading entity with an ABN, to that trading name.

GST registration is optional with ABN registration, however you cannot register for GST without an ABN

Cranbourne Lawnmowing
19-03-2011, 07:16 PM
Dont stress too much Paul. I am not registered for GST. Started from scratch and unless I'm earning 75 G ain't going to. Can't see the point and my accountant said not to worry about it until your earning that much money.

Anjaryan
19-03-2011, 07:27 PM
One thing you do need to watch...

If you do make it to 75k you need to register and pay gst on the lot, if you havn't charged your clients for it it comes outta your pocket, meaning you might be at least 7.5k outta pocket.

MikeS
19-03-2011, 08:04 PM
My Name is my Business and I am not really worried about selling as it seems by the prices people get it hardly covers what the gear is worth.

As for recognition we just use our website with was registered because it was a common search term "lawnmowingbrisbane" that’s all the advertising we do and still get 3 or 4 calls every day with new work and the books are full.

Cranbourne Lawnmowing
19-03-2011, 08:13 PM
My Name is my Business and I am not really worried about selling as it seems by the prices people get it hardly covers what the gear is worth.

As for recognition we just use our website with was registered because it was a common search term "lawnmowingbrisbane" that’s all the advertising we do and still get 3 or 4 calls every day with new work and the books are full.

I'm not surprised Mike. A while ago we had an area thing going for people on here and it kept sending me to your web site.:confused::confused:

Good to see you on the forums. Welcome.:wave-hi::wave-hi:

MikeS
19-03-2011, 08:19 PM
I'm not surprised Mike. A while ago we had an area thing going for people on here and it kept sending me to your web site.:confused::confused:


Sounds like a plot to me :rolleyes:

Gremlins Property Services
19-03-2011, 08:49 PM
I first started not registerred for gst but had registerred name and abn. within 6 months projected income was well over 75k for the year so we then registerred for gst. now 12 months on and our income so far is 95k, and increasing, lucky we registerred when we did.

ian
19-03-2011, 08:51 PM
One thing you do need to watch...

If you do make it to 75k you need to register and pay gst on the lot, if you havn't charged your clients for it it comes outta your pocket, meaning you might be at least 7.5k outta pocket.

but remember if your not paying gst it is illegal to charge gst but you can charge the same price so if someone is charging $44 including gst you just charge $44 and don't mention gst

RSM-Gazza
21-03-2011, 03:46 AM
Paul,

I registered for GST as I spent a fair wack on rig/gear/ride-on/signwritting/advertising/yellow pages to start me up rapidly.

Plus I secured good dollar return gold commercial clients from start up. This commercial base has grown further as the business gained momentum. My Commercial clients suppliment the lessor attractive $ return of domestic clients in my case.
If I had not of registered for GST knowing that my business start income would be under $75g's. I would have not got or just lost my commercial clients as that is the way it works for them like me claiming the $99 GST back on the Yellow Pages advertising.

The above is my path I took, mainly due to the high dollar initial investment and secure business clients I knew I had access to and was targeting in my mix of clients as I was starting.

I registered a simple catchy rarther short business name. It had to be highly recognisable and be remembable in 4 seconds. As if I drive past someone with my well signaged rig. I figured they had 4 seconds to remember it. Plus being on a border town, it had to named neutral to capture both sides of the border with equal interest to potential clients.
I often get asked if I'm a franchise operator due to the way it has been setup. I just say little ol me did it, but heaps of advise (actually 100%) came from this forum + admin.

PaulG
21-03-2011, 01:29 PM
Thanks guys. All advice is appreciated. Just trying to settle on a business name I like and that isn't already taken is proving the hardest part. As soon as everything's registered I'll be getting signage done. I've been in touch with one of my mowing clients who is a graphic designer and she is ready to help as soon as I'm ready to go.

imoww
21-03-2011, 09:38 PM
I was going mad over thinking up a business name when registering mine.
I originall had iMOWW but had to lose it because someone else had iMOW.
Now registered as M.B. Mowing.
And registering for an ABN was for free.
As for pay as you go GST- every 3 months, It's pretty straight forward.

imoww
21-03-2011, 09:39 PM
Hey guys, How about putting some names out there for guys looking for a catching lawn mowing business:
I'll start with one...
Mower's arch

glassngrass
22-03-2011, 04:49 AM
As for pay as you go GST- every 3 months, It's pretty straight forward.

Hmmm..... So straight forward that even an experienced professional bookkeeper doesn't qualify to lodge your BAS unless he also qualifies and registers to become a BAS agent.

Bluey
22-03-2011, 01:50 PM
Thanks guys. All advice is appreciated. Just trying to settle on a business name I like and that isn't already taken is proving the hardest part. As soon as everything's registered I'll be getting signage done. I've been in touch with one of my mowing clients who is a graphic designer and she is ready to help as soon as I'm ready to go.

It pays to have your name early on in the alphabet. Great for listings as most of these are done alphabetically. ie. A before Z

cadase
22-03-2011, 06:16 PM
It pays to have your name early on in the alphabet. Great for listings as most of these are done alphabetically. ie. A before Z
Yep thats why i changed my business name to Aardvark Home and Garden Solutions :)

Chris B
22-03-2011, 06:35 PM
Hmmm..... So straight forward that even an experienced professional bookkeeper doesn't qualify to lodge your BAS unless he also qualifies and registers to become a BAS agent.

Staight-forward enough that anyone can lodge there own BAS with the help of the ATO website :)

glassngrass
22-03-2011, 08:51 PM
Here is the disparity between what is expected of a professional bookkeeper/accountant, and a business owner.

If the former makes a silly mistake, they risk being deemed incompetent, having their registrations cancelled and professional memberships withdrawn - their very livelihood is in jeopardy.

If a business owner deliberately claims stuff he knows he ought not, he can fall back on "oops!" and pay some penalties and interest.

Double standards.

Cranbourne Lawnmowing
23-03-2011, 12:03 AM
Thanks guys. All advice is appreciated. Just trying to settle on a business name I like and that isn't already taken is proving the hardest part. As soon as everything's registered I'll be getting signage done. I've been in touch with one of my mowing clients who is a graphic designer and she is ready to help as soon as I'm ready to go.

I know this is a bit of a lazy way but check out some different overseas lawnmowing sites and you will be surprised by some user names that might give you an idea for a catchy business name.;)

holdenhead
23-03-2011, 10:31 PM
I had a great business name about 10 years ago that I operated under for a few years. I moved around a bit and didn't get my Business name renewal and someone stole it about 3-4 months after it expired. If you look up the business names register the name is there from when I had it and you can see that the next person straight after me. The name is 'Choppa Weed' and my slogan was 'the most feared man in the undergrowth'. I was going to reregister it recently but went for something new 'OZMOWSIS parks and gardens' as I thought it had a more commercial sound to it. I used to get a few calls from people wanting to buy drugs with the old name.

Cheers Rick