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Thread: Equipment Purchase Dilemma

  1. #1
    Acreage Mowing Service's Avatar
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    Default Equipment Purchase Dilemma

    Hi everyone, I am seeking guidance, advice and/or criticism to assist in a decision making problem.

    Mowing Situation:
    50 hectares – divided into separate areas ranging from 1000 to 10,000 square metres. Must be mulch cut with 40mm finish. Scheduled cuts estimate grass length summer length 120mm Winter 80mm. Frost and moisture in winter, moist to dry in summer. Flat to moderate slope, and lots of trees and garden beds. Grass type: Couch, Blue couch, Rhodes grass, paspalum summer & winter grasses.

    Equipment choices:
    We are looking at the advantage of a zero turn (otherwise it would be an out front) from either a Hustler super Z 37HP 66 inch deck with mulch deck or a Scag Turf Tiger 35hp 61 inch with mulch deck (Toro is out of the frame their product quality in my opinion is diminishing). Both could have a larger decks however I believe the smaller decks would be better with mulch decks. Budget $20,000.00.

    Question:
    Has anyone used a Super Z or a Scag with a mulch deck in this type of situation and how did it perform, I am concerned about choking on the density of grass being cut as I need to yield a minimum of 4 acres an hour and the client is fussy about clippings.

    Any feedback or alternative suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you.
    Keith Stuart

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    Member hjl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Equipment Purchase Dilemma

    Wow 4 acres per hour mulched and fussy client. I will be interested to see how you go.
    Good luck.
    hjl

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    Member Mick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Equipment Purchase Dilemma

    Im with hji'…….. WOW!!!!
    4 acres an hour, small properties, mulched and no clippings…. Not happening!

    I assume you do acreage mowing (your name suggests it obviously) but what machinery are you running now?

    I would suggest running 2, high hp, 60" side discharge machines with an OCDC!

    Had to laugh, client worries about clippings and wants it mulched. Watch this… http://youtu.be/XA2emfqCAAo
    This isnt the USA where the 1/3rd rule may apply! Oh no, this is Australia where we can cut 8" off in a week!
    How'd they come up with 120mm in summer? We can get that in a few days no to mention the weeds!
    I hope this is a fortnightly turn around. 60 odd acres a week with a max size prop of around 2.5 acres. Realistically, your looking at 10 acres a day, 6 days a week, God help you if we get a long period of rain or a broken machine!
    Yep, 2 (of the same) machines brother!
    Stick to zero turns.

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    Acreage Mowing Service's Avatar
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    Default Re: Equipment Purchase Dilemma

    Hi Mick,
    Thank you for your interest what is a "OCDC" ?
    There are two main properties one with 190,000 square metres basically open park land the other 330,000 square metres ranging from 1000 to 10,000 square metres per area which are all adjoined within one large complex .
    Both have cuts which are Summer weekly, Autumn/Spring Fortnightly, Winter Monthly.
    Have a team running a Ventrac lawn tractor with a 72 in mulch cut, Toro 60 in mulch cut and a couple of walkers (only one with a mulch).
    I am not happy with Toro and tossing around for a productive machine that can finish at neat not quite immaculate 40mm mulch comfortably through anything!
    Have you any brand suggestions or knowledge on the Hustler or Scag?
    Personally if funds allowed I'd get a out front fail with a John Deer rear steer 38hp but the cost equates to around $50,000.00.
    Your input is appreciated.
    Keith

  5. #5
    Senior Member edbeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Equipment Purchase Dilemma

    Hi Keith, I can't imagine anybody in my area that would want to mow 120 odd acres, and it they did, I wouldn't be mulch mowing @ 1.5", so I'm not much help.

    I have mulch plates for my 44" gravely but only use them occasionally on residential or 1 acre blocks. I find it very slow mowing on thick couch and often lots of double cutting to clean up, and that's cutting at 2- 2.5" weekly.

    My acreage mowing is all side throw with the ferris 61", but I couldn't cut at 1.5" due to scalping issues. I'm mostly @ 2.5-3" and struggle to get 3 acres/hr, but none are done weekly and most are pretty rough.
    Out of curiosity what engine is on your Toro, and what acres/hr are you getting from it mulching at 40mm?

    You'd have a much better idea than i would, but if I had to mulch mow large areas often, I'd be thinking a twin powered Dixie Chopper. 27hp for the deck and 27hp for the drive. I don't know if they do mulching decks for them or the price.

    Really interested to hear how you get on.

    *edit* By the way, OCDC = operator controlled discharge chute.

  6. #6
    Member Mick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Equipment Purchase Dilemma

    Is this a council contract? They have to cut at 1.5" here too. The scalping at times is pretty bad and you can see how often the hit things and bend blades. I reckon they should raise it to 2" personally.

    Its good you already have other machines running, theres no chance you'd get all that area done in one week with one unless its a WAM
    Speaking of which, have you looked at the Hustler 104? http://www.hustlerturf.com/products/super-104 Over your budget but something to demo. These large areas are what the thing was made for.

    Your already run mulching decks so you know whats happening with the clippings. It sounded like it was going to be a big deal.
    Good thing about mulching kits on SD deck is that they can be removed if they dont work out. An OCDC stands for Operator Controlled Discharge Chute. Its basically a plate that blocks the discharge chute but can be open and closed at will. You can buy them but there easy to make.

    Ive been running Super Z's since around 2005, I have a 2011 60" 37 (35hp) SZ now. There are a few vids on YT if your interested. There mostly about these clumps I get but since your mulching, take no notice… https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYm...HkqgRFLbcdGSgQ

    Are you expecting this one machine to cut 4 acres/hr or is that what you want with all 3 or 4 machines running? Youd pizz that in with 2 or 3 no matter what machine you got!
    Ive done an 11 acre driving range and it took 3hrs. That was the easiest large area Ive done and machine was maxed out speed wise most of the time and not cutting much off, bugger all actually. Even then I wasnt getting 4 acres/hr. Close but not quite! But that was side discharging. You know with mulching it draws more power and therefore slows you down. The SZ can cut a lot of area but mulching is going to reduce that considerably especially if you get into a thick patch or moisture. The larger the deck the slower you'll go.

    The fastest machine available here at the moment would arguably be the current 2014 Super Z. Add the flex forks, the 35 Kawi and 72" side discharge+OCDC or 60" SD+OCDC/Mulch I doubt there is another standard ztr that will touch it!
    Other machines to demo would be Gravely (great reviews on lawnsite) and the Scag TT with the big block but the SZ will smash them on larger open areas.

    At the end of the day, you need to demo and see which works best in the worst conditions. I know the Hustler rep and could maybe help setting up a demo if you like. I also know a Scag dealer and could maybe help with that too. PM me if your interested. I dont get anything out of it so no problem either way.

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    Member Mick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Equipment Purchase Dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by edbeek View Post
    You'd have a much better idea than i would, but if I had to mulch mow large areas often, I'd be thinking a twin powered Dixie Chopper. 27hp for the deck and 27hp for the drive. I don't know if they do mulching decks for them or the price.
    I didnt know there was a Dixie dealer up this way, where abouts are they?

    Yeah Keith, let us know how you go, what you decide etc.

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    Senior Member edbeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Equipment Purchase Dilemma

    I see there is an AU distributer in NSW Mick. Alltrades or something like that.

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    Acreage Mowing Service's Avatar
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    Default Re: Equipment Purchase Dilemma

    Hi,
    The majority of our cuts are throw and on medium to large acreage residential with a 2 ½ inch finish. Personally mulch cut to throw most clients don’t know the difference and I believe with a throw there is reduced clumping where the cuttings are evenly spread.
    This job is a government written specification and I am not the only contractor quoting on this job. We are all bewildered as to how a neat 40mm finish with a mulch deck can be achieved let alone allowance for costing for double cuts etc. and time.
    The Toro is a 27hp (nearing the end of her days), the Ventrac a 31hp turbo, both can suffer and choke with a mulch deck albeit the Ventrac does a better job and depending on variables yields up to 3 acres an hour.
    As I am disappointed with the Toro brand that’s why I threw out there asking for advice on suggested alternatives.
    Thank you for your input and suggestion on the Dixie chopper I shall look into.
    Best regards
    Keith

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Equipment Purchase Dilemma

    Hi Mick,
    This job is a government written specification and I am not the only contractor quoting on this job. We are all bewildered as to how a neat 40mm finish with a mulch deck can be achieved let alone allowance for costing for double cuts etc. and time.
    The Toro is a 27hp (nearing the end of her days), the Ventrac a 31hp turbo, both can suffer and choke with a mulch deck albeit the Ventrac does a better job and depending on variables yields up to 3 acres an hour.
    As I am disappointed with the Toro brand that’s why I threw out there asking for advice on suggested alternatives as I need to replace the Toro.
    I did consider the super 104 but am concerned that the super Z and 104 has the same Kawasaki FX1000 35hp motor and the 104 with a mulch deck may choke more than the Z.
    Looks like a demo and test to review and purchase, If The mulch requirement was out of the equation it would be the Z, thank you for your guidance.
    PS On your YouTube “Hustler Super Z clips 1 through 6” are similar at one of the sites.
    Thank you
    Best regards
    Keith

  11. #11
    Member Mick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Equipment Purchase Dilemma

    It had to be a gov/council job with the 1.5" spec. Its the same here but there allowed to use side discharge decks with an OCDC.
    I just dont see how youll get a nice clean finish mulching unless its middle of winter and or drought, but will they want it cut if its drought and the grass is dead? You REALLY need to ask them that!

    You know yourself how fast grass can grow and add even a little rain and you'll have a big problems with the clippings and then the "officer" will start hounding you. There will be weeks when you cant mow and then what, double the grass length and much much more time. Then, not only will you be dealing with last weeks clippings but also the new growth. At least with a side discharge you can manage the clippings somewhat. Thankfully the cutting schedule is (just) ok and is all you have on your side.

    Personally if they said " clean finish and mulch deck" in the same paragraph, I'd drop it all together as I dont think you can have both, and needing 4 acres an hour (one machine) just pushes it way to far unless you already have a WAM.

    But thats what they want so thats that.


    A few quick sums here…
    120acres/6 day week =20acres/day.
    2 machines only need to do 10 acres per day each.

    3 days a week = 20 acres/day each. Thats only 2.5 acres/hr/8hrs and completely freezable so is what I'd be going for personally so you can keep 2 days free for other work, repairs, catch up etc. But I dont know if you can continually average 2.5 acres an hour with a mulch deck. You said you can get up to 3 acres with your Ventrac but Im betting thats in pretty great conditions. Its not those times Id be worried about and if drought, will they want it cut? They shut the guys down here when its like that! Happened twice this year to a guy I know. (no income in those periods)


    Those YT clips, 1-6 are of the property I spoke of earlier being Ive done it in 2hrs, average 2.5, regularly 3hrs and its taken upwards of 4hrs when its been missed for several weeks due to rain. Its only like 5 acres minus the houses, drive etc but its not all wide open, there are smaller areas. I guess my point is, on paper my SZ can do many acres per hour but in reality, Im only getting average 2.5 or so. And thats not farking about but getting the max out of the machine side discharging. Adding a mulch deck would decrease my acre per hour rate considerably.

    Anyway, all that said, demoing is the only way to see what works or not. But I urge you to demo on grass that is the same as you'll be cutting and then demo again in conditions where it looks like its been missed a few weeks and cut at the heights you need to cut. Ask them to bring along a few different sets of blades to try out as well. low lift, standard, standard mulch and G6.
    I'd be demoing now while theres rain about and its still growing!

  12. #12
    Senior Member sterlo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Equipment Purchase Dilemma

    would this get u close? Ive seen this model demo, fast and nice cut.

    http://www.husqvarna.com/au/products...mowers/p-525d/

    Considering the fact that there is a max height usually specified in these jobs, cutting frequency doesn't get to the too long stage affecting finish

    Sterlo
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    Senior Member troppo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Equipment Purchase Dilemma

    Never had anything to do with ZTRs, but that link says pressed deck. Even my brother-in-law chose a fabricated deck over pressed deck on his Ariens for domestic use. Have you thought of checking out the Wright range with their Aero decks. Have spoken to the importer and found him to be quite genuine over the phone. I think he said there's an operator on the Sunny coast that used to run Walkers, but found the Wrights to be more productive. Could be wrong on that one, but worth a phone call.

  14. #14
    Senior Member sterlo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Equipment Purchase Dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by troppo View Post
    Never had anything to do with ZTRs, but that link says pressed deck. Even my brother-in-law chose a fabricated deck over pressed deck on his Ariens for domestic use. Have you thought of checking out the Wright range with their Aero decks. Have spoken to the importer and found him to be quite genuine over the phone. I think he said there's an operator on the Sunny coast that used to run Walkers, but found the Wrights to be more productive. Could be wrong on that one, but worth a phone call.
    Havent bent one yet!! anyways they cost sweet fa to replace
    I spend most of my money on beer and horses, I just waste the rest....


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  15. #15
    Senior Member edbeek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Equipment Purchase Dilemma

    Specs for that deck say pressed 7 gauge steel. Shouldn't bend it in a hurry.

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