Glyphosate, Good for what ails you

[BLACK BEAR]

Yes my little puppy does all the above and really is a big teddy bear who loves everyone ( is known to be a little racist) will even stick his nose up your a... and in your G.... if he really likes you!
Jump over my fence or be a little aggressive to me or the missus and funny things start to happen to him, either way you could be the one dragging your ar..
Yes my friend other than that dogs can be a part of the family and provide many benefits-like your business they must be understood, managed and all the benefits/risks weighed up for your circumstances.

[Mrs HMS]

Interesting debate. Also interesting to see the three clear stances developing about it...

There's the very definate "don't use chemicals", the "yep we know they're dangerous but what viable alternative do we have" and the "it's all safe if handled correctly"...gotta love human nature.

I have young kids, and you know if I even thought that something I had done caused them permanent harm, made their lives more difficult I think I would be refusing to do whatever it was again too. In the analagies used here...if I drove a car that was in an accident (due to my negligent driving) that resulted in my daughers having an acquired brain injury, para or quadriplegia etc I don't think I could ever get into a car again, let along behind the wheel.

So much of what we use damages the earth too and without a healthy environment future generations are in for a tough time. Lifestyle I know that you use salt as an alternative but I wonder, if everyone...contractors and backyard warriors alike all switched to this method, how this would impact on the current problem we have with rising soil salinity....runoff washes into rivers and streams causing salt levels to rise, plants and aquatic animals die off, our vital artesian water is tainted and the face of our world is changed permanently. (Just me pondering, not attacking your position in any way).

As to the dog poop, this contains bacteria which our bodies are equipped to fight. I had a daughter who as a baby loved nothing better than to munch into a nice meal of dirt/sand until what came out the other end was something you could lay bricks with. I never worried too much about it, exposure to germs builds immunity and this kid never gets sick now. However, I would be extremely concerned if the same child was munching on a handful of something that had been in contact with chemical sprays, the human body can't fight that.

I don't know how we can come up with an alternative that we can all find acceptable, especially the customers. I think perhaps the only way those people who pay our "wages" will ever be converted in numbers is widespread media coverage of the dangers. (Look at how playgrounds, schools and many many parents now insist on using anything but treated pine for play equipment due to the dangers of the arsenic used in the treatment of the timber). We need serious scientific studies and the results of these studies need to be in the media over and over again until the majority of people get the message....it worked with DDT, it worked with asbestos and it worked with Thalidamide.

Thanks for your input...

I'm on my lunch break, just spent 3 hours mowing and pulling weeds out not far from home. So i ducked in for a break.

I see the terms "viable alternative" used a lot. The reason i avoided answering what alternatives there was available was we don't need any alternative.

I find it very hard to believe anyone working in the Gardening industry can be too white collared to get their hands dirty. Or think them selves too high and mighty to bend over and pull a weed out.

Perhaps many people should change to a dog washing business.

Why do we need an alternative ? What did they use before chemicals - Ask Grandma ?

As i said before, I only use a small amount of salt on cracks in paths, pavers and along fence lines where no run of can damage anything. I do this on approx. 5% of my customer base. Everything else i either whipper snip, pull out or they do the garden/edges themselves.

...the stuff is so readily available in Bunnings because of a little Marketing technique called Supply & Demand. If we stop demanding it... they'll slow supply down to a stop.

[Mrs HMS]

Originally Posted by lifestyle

I find it very hard to believe anyone working in the Gardening industry can be too white collared to get their hands dirty. Or think them selves too high and mighty to bend over and pull a weed out.

Perhaps many people should change to a dog washing business.

I don't think anyone on this forum or seriously working their own business in this field would consider themselves above pulling out a weed. I understand that you're probably a little knackered from working this morning but comments such as that are not going to sway anyone over to your way of thinking....you cannot convince people by insulting them (just as those that have also insulted you aren't going to make me think...."yeah what he said"). If you didn't mean to insult (which I'm sure you didn't ), unfortunately to my mind, it did come across that way.

Originally Posted by lifestyle

Why do we need an alternative ? What did they use before chemicals - Ask Grandma ?

Actually back then life styles were very different than they are now. Mostly the women-folk stayed home and had time to tend the garden, weed, prune etc. Only the very wealthy could afford to employ a gardener or caretaker. Now days so many people work full time that not only is time of the essence but also money. People will get someone in to mow and look after their gardens but only so long as it is affordable.

I think that when it comes to small scale weeding many contractors will pull the weed out manually but when it comes to a larger scale job the cost of having someone manually extract the weeds would be prohibitive to many customers. If all contractors stopped using chemicals and started charging for large scale manual removal, this industry would effectively be crippled.

Originally Posted by lifestyle

As i said before, I only use a small amount of salt on cracks in paths, pavers and along fence lines where no run of can damage anything

Yet when it rains the rain water seeps between the pavers, taking the salt with it. With time this would build up soil salinity in the immediate area of treatment, with time this would find it's way into ground water. If everyone was doing this I have no doubt that it would have an environmental impact eventually.

I understand your position on this matter, I respect your dedication to it. But until there is an affordable alternative for large scale use I can't see where the majority or the paying customers are going to be convinced to ask that toxic chemicals not be used.

The answer remains in education of the consumer and the message needs to be repeated over and over again.

For the record. I don't use chemicals in my own garden, we use steam and manual removal, them make weed tea to feed the garden.
Nor do I use chemicals inside my home either but I pay dearly for good organic products (I will not use an organic alternative if it simply does not work).

[geejay]

Originally Posted by Mrs HMS

I don't think anyone on this forum or seriously working their own business in this field would consider themselves above pulling out a weed. I understand that you're probably a little knackered from working this morning but comments such as that are not going to sway anyone over to your way of thinking....you cannot convince people by insulting them (just as those that have also insulted you aren't going to make me think...."yeah what he said"). If you didn't mean to insult (which I'm sure you didn't ), unfortunately to my mind, it did come across that way.



Actually back then life styles were very different than they are now. Mostly the women-folk stayed home and had time to tend the garden, weed, prune etc. Only the very wealthy could afford to employ a gardener or caretaker. Now days so many people work full time that not only is time of the essence but also money. People will get someone in to mow and look after their gardens but only so long as it is affordable.

I think that when it comes to small scale weeding many contractors will pull the weed out manually but when it comes to a larger scale job the cost of having someone manually extract the weeds would be prohibitive to many customers. If all contractors stopped using chemicals and started charging for large scale manual removal, this industry would effectively be crippled.



Yet when it rains the rain water seeps between the pavers, taking the salt with it. With time this would build up soil salinity in the immediate area of treatment, with time this would find it's way into ground water. If everyone was doing this I have no doubt that it would have an environmental impact eventually.

I understand your position on this matter, I respect your dedication to it. But until there is an affordable alternative for large scale use I can't see where the majority or the paying customers are going to be convinced to ask that toxic chemicals not be used.

The answer remains in education of the consumer and the message needs to be repeated over and over again.

For the record. I don't use chemicals in my own garden, we use steam and manual removal, them make weed tea to feed the garden.
Nor do I use chemicals inside my home either but I pay dearly for good organic products (I will not use an organic alternative if it simply does not work).

what system do you use to apply steam to weeds?

i think if we could develop a safe,easy,cost effective system of using steam this could lead the way to replacing herbicides.

the steamwand has been developed in Australia for commericial applications.

if we could develop a steamwand for our size businesses it would be a pathfinder.

i think a small boiler,boiling water,then realising steam to a designed nozzle is the basic idea.

[geejay]

www.oxfordcatalysts.com

have developed instant steam in a small dispensing bottle with a boiler the size of a sugar cube.

looks like we could have a safer,cost effective,portable solution to weed control in the near future.

[Mrs HMS]

Hi Geejay, I use my steam cleaner (called a steam dream)...got it from danoz direct years and years ago.

The only downside is that it must be plugged in to mains power but I have the longest mother of an extension lead and we have a couple of external powerpoints outside.

I use it with the precision nozzle and just hit the weeds until they literally cook...great for between pavers and the stubborn ones that like to grow through our lilydale topping paths.

I tried it on moss a while ago and it killed it a treat, just had to scrape it away with a stiff broom a couple of days later.

[geejay]

Originally Posted by Mrs HMS

Hi Geejay, I use my steam cleaner (called a steam dream)...got it from danoz direct years and years ago.

The only downside is that it must be plugged in to mains power but I have the longest mother of an extension lead and we have a couple of external powerpoints outside.

I use it with the precision nozzle and just hit the weeds until they literally cook...great for between pavers and the stubborn ones that like to grow through our lilydale topping paths.

I tried it on moss a while ago and it killed it a treat, just had to scrape it away with a stiff broom a couple of days later.

brillant

you don't only have looks but brains,what a combo

only joking

thanks for that

[glassngrass]

Originally Posted by lifestyle

"...In 1996 Monsanto was accused of false and misleading advertising of glyphosate products, prompting a law suit by the New York State attorney general.

Originally Posted by lifestyle

hmmmmmm, and they tell us its safe enough to drink

Has Monsanto actually said or implied it is safe enough to drink?
In producing an MSDS and warning label, HAS Monsanto said this stuff is benign?

Careful or you may end up in a law suit of your own!

Perhaps you are just taking literary licence and leaving us to take your arguements with - a pinch of salt!

[glassngrass]

Originally Posted by glassngrass

I find it difficult to take the harbinger of 'impending doom' from our glyposate use seriously, so now am simply having a bit of fun and accepting the invitation to strongly disagree.

There is no heated anger in my posts and I don't desire to 'flame' anyone.

I love this forum - it's a great place to interact and exchange ideas, views, solutions and experiences

Hi Joanne,

I wasn't directing my last reply to any individaul, only at the industry which includes myself. It just happened to follow your reply. My apologies if you thought it was directed at you.

Originally Posted by Mrs HMS

I don't think anyone on this forum or seriously working their own business in this field would consider themselves above pulling out a weed. I understand that you're probably a little knackered from working this morning

lol... no not knackered, i just feel the need explain my actions since a few have replied before with the idea i am "always on the forum and mustn't work", just wanted to let them know i was on my lunch break

Originally Posted by Mrs HMS

... but comments such as that are not going to sway anyone over to your way of thinking....you cannot convince people by insulting them (just as those that have also insulted you aren't going to make me think...."yeah what he said"). If you didn't mean to insult (which I'm sure you didn't ), unfortunately to my mind, it did come across that way.

Again, it is not my intention to insult any one. Secondly I don't want to sway anyone to my way of thinking. I'm just trying to highlight the facts we don't see "Under The Label". Any insult you detected was again, aimed at the industry as a whole.

Originally Posted by Mrs HMS

Actually back then life styles were very different than they are now. Mostly the women-folk stayed home and had time to tend the garden, weed, prune etc. Only the very wealthy could afford to employ a gardener or caretaker. Now days so many people work full time that not only is time of the essence but also money. People will get someone in to mow and look after their gardens but only so long as it is affordable.

Yes, lifestyles were different and i totally agree with your points, but if time (for the contractor) or money (for the client) was an issue, mulching or solorization would be economical options. The more organic material on the soil the easier regular weeding would be.

Originally Posted by Mrs HMS

I think that when it comes to small scale weeding many contractors will pull the weed out manually but when it comes to a larger scale job the cost of having someone manually extract the weeds would be prohibitive to many customers. If all contractors stopped using chemicals and started charging for large scale manual removal, this industry would effectively be crippled.

Again i think its just a matter of thinking outside the box. Use the right tools, speed weeders, push/pull hoes etc, quiet often on a job i only have to go over an area with a hoe to knock the weeds over then mulch over. The more mulch, the easier weed pulling on a regular basis is. Suppression is the ultimate time saver.

Originally Posted by Mrs HMS

{salt} Yet when it rains the rain water seeps between the pavers, taking the salt with it. With time this would build up soil salinity in the immediate area of treatment, with time this would find it's way into ground water. If everyone was doing this I have no doubt that it would have an environmental impact eventually.

We are talking about as much salt as one would put on their dinner. I recently salted our gravel driveway which is about 50 metres long and 5 metres wide. So for 250 square metres it took less than 3kgs of salt. If you can see the salt, you've used too much.

Originally Posted by Mrs HMS

I understand your position on this matter, I respect your dedication to it. But until there is an affordable alternative for large scale use I can't see where the majority or the paying customers are going to be convinced to ask that toxic chemicals not be used.

The answer remains in education of the consumer and the message needs to be repeated over and over again.

It still comes down to supply and demand. If the industry doesn't offer the service, they have to look at alternative options. Or turn their gardens into lawn.

Originally Posted by Mrs HMS

For the record. I don't use chemicals in my own garden, we use steam and manual removal, them make weed tea to feed the garden.
Nor do I use chemicals inside my home either but I pay dearly for good organic products (I will not use an organic alternative if it simply does not work).

Good on you for using Organic stuff in your home. Bethany has been using an Organic Soy Milk for about 6 months and has stopped dry retching and no longer gets eczema. It costs around $3 a litre which is pretty good considering.

Granted, Organic products are slightly dearer. We pay $15.95 for 250ml of shampoo, and $14.50 for 250ml conditioner. We use Pro-biotic household cleaner which is concentrated and costs about $11.00. Heck, our Dishwash liquid is about $10 for 250ml. But 100% of it is from nature, nothing added and nothing taken away. I'd pay double the price if i had to, but I wouldn't pay 50 cents for a litre of glyphosate.

Originally Posted by glassngrass

Has Monsanto actually said or implied it is safe enough to drink?
In producing an MSDS and warning label, HAS Monsanto said this stuff is benign?

Careful or you may end up in a law suit of your own!

Perhaps you are just taking literary licence and leaving us to take your arguements with - a pinch of salt!

I don't quote anything unless i offer the source. I listed all the website i got my information from.

I wasn't referring to Monsanto saying it was safe enough to drink the "they" refers to conversations i have had with others. For example, my Uncle, who has a learning disabiltiy went to a store here in Tasmania [to buy roundup] and he asked the salesman if it was safe to use around his dog, to which the salesman replied... "Its safe enough to drink". My Uncle didn't, but could have taken him seriously.

geejay / joanne,

good to see the excahnge of useful chemical free options.

[Bluey]

Ok... I have been watching this debate develope. Good to see there are are many varied thoughts here.

Being relatively new to the game I am all ears but it seems to me we have to adapt with every situation or become totally on one side or the other like Lifestyle has.

I support eco friendly approaches and practice them myself but I equally support using the appropriate resources where they are required. As long as you are aware of their side effects and don't go over board.

Lifestyle .. you espouse the use of salt and I have read in previous posts on this forum where you say you have to reapply the salt. Mrs HMS has a point. Salt can be as bad as any insecticide.

I agree that we should manually pull weeds but what is your hourly rate to do this Lifestyle????

At mine most of my customers would just laugh in my face. I need the work... maybe you don't and can afford to choose your clients. It would be good to do so but unfortunately I can't.

I do admire your dedication to the path you are following. Good on you for that but I also think people should be allowed the power of choice.

Before I joined this game I managed 30 plus people and the one thing I know is you cannot force people to do things. Change has to be embraced slowly and it takes a lot of work.

Now I am not a greenie and I am not a chemical warrior either. I have seen the worst on both sides.

Lifestyle.... I ask a question....do you use any chemicals at all in your daily life????

The reason I ask this goes back along way to a run in I had with a Green Group when I was with the state government in Qld. These self appointed warriors of the forest built themselves a headquarters in Cairns made out of.... wait for it..... wood.

Biggest bunch of preaching wankers I have ever come across. They would not accept anyone else's point of view but did the worst thing possible themselves. Their justification was it was recycled timber.

I am not saying this is you lifestyle but personally I think we have to be adaptable when it comes to our job and use a whole range of tools to make things work depending on what the customer wants.

If I ever get to the stage where I can say I am only organic and I will not use chemicals I would be happy.

In parting I ask the question ...why do we now have these chemicals....answer...the "old" ways did not work as well as people liked.

Remember we people of the earth used to walk everywhere....there were probably people who said the advent of horses was bad for us

[geejay]

weeded my front garden this afternoon with my dutch hoe(a beauty,sharp as),10 mintutes,now I would have charged $10 to spray a herbicde,no contest for me,cleared the weeds and at the same time areated the soil surface with the backward stroke,soil looks and smells heathly,gotta love that,no chemical smell